What pumilio morph will be the next new import ?

[Michael Lawrence]

There are just as many Dart Breeders not on the boards, I know many who dislike the vibe they were hit with and left ages ago. As for site specific they are out there, I know of a few species of obligates outside what Rich has that are floating around.
I can tell you first hand Ive received frogs from all three of the listed that tested very positive for Parasites as well as those from Patrick, Richard R and so on....I do not put much faith into anyone who mass produce darts as we all know its not in the profit potential to test for them and would be very much a head ache to keep up with.
As of late I've seen enough on the boards to know we need a much better management system that what is available and its likely not going to work with alot of whats here. I would say that if you can afford the viv and supply cost you can likely afford to spend a few extra bucks on known locale frogs.
I also think that it wouldnt be all that hard for us all to just stop buying for a few months and let the importers sit on what they have until they realize more info is needed with what they bring in. Its not like it would be all that pricey either to get an article published in Reptiles on this issue and push it into the eyes of all the herp hobby that do not visit the frog boards.

Michael

[Philsuma]

I tend to place my trust in what I can see and hear personally. I have a large network of hobbyists, whose opinions, I value to go along with that as well.

Case in point....I had heard a few good things about Andy (Brooklyn Dart Frogs) but never met him or visited his collection until last month. Now, I'm glad I can add him to the list of people that I would recommend to others for quality animals and advice. I've had 38 different hobbyists at my home / frog room in 2010 .I would hope they could do the same for me.

Is it easy to trash someone in this hobby ? Of course it is...

Here's the big ones:

1. So and so's frogs have Chytrid
2.....have Hookworm
3. .....FF's have mites
4.....mixed microfauna cultures have mites
5.....is a smuggler or patronizes smugglers
6.....steals frogs
7.....sells sick or disease ridden frogs that die and won't refund money

I know for a fact the some or all of these have been said about Marcus B, Sean S, Patrick N. I've heard it with my own ears. Truth or just sour grapes and industry lies.... You need to judge for youself.

[Michael Lawrence]

Of course, its all up to the buyer. Every one screws up yes and no one is perfect. But all I was pushing toward was not to undervalue the more private breeders/hobbyists as many of them put much more work and care into their frogs. I pretty much quit recommending anyone to everyone. I find it doesn't often help and when they have and issue arise it always comes back to you no matter the issue.
Personally, I've done more than my part to keep any and all customers happy. If frogs quit selling, how many of these people/ breeders would still be doing this?

[Michael Lawrence]

Ha, just saw #4.....Has to be a jab so I ask, Who did I ever sell mite infested cultures to and not make it right? I dont think anyone else has ever put the time in and created successful mixed cultures....

[Philsuma]

Yep...I heard that one. Only once though.

It's also gotten back to me, that I supposedly transfered frogs with Hookworm.

The point is, there's very few people that I've never heard at least one of those statements applied to.


I'd buy feeder cultures from ya anytime, Mike. No worries.

[RichFrye]

Yep...I heard that one. Only once though.

It's also gotten back to me, that I supposedly transfered frogs with Hookworm.

The point is, there's very few people that I've never heard at least one of those statements applied to.


I'd buy feeder cultures from ya anytime, Mike. No worries.

One very important thing to understand and remember Phil.
It is no sin to have frogs with parasites. It's no sin to have frogs with potentially harmful or life threatening parasites. They can come in on all sorts of things.
The debate as to when and if to treat known potantially leathal parasites ends with every professional when the loads are very high.
There is a huge difference in a person transfering a few frogs with manageable loads of a parasite or possibly two and someone who knows they should be at leasty testing , but is not .
There is absolutely zero excuse for certain (any...) individuals with the tools to check for huge loads of hookworms, lungworms, coccidia, tapeworms, un-IDable protozoa, and other parasites to be sending frogs on death's door.
These are not whisperings Phil. It happened, there's no excuse. Learn from it. Many other old timers have. Ask them.
The looking at a frogger's set-up is zero yardstick for how a man runs his business. He can have a room I could eat off of and it means nothing to me. Lots of German smuggler's have very cool frog rooms. No knock at all on Andy, obviously.

Phil, are you pro 'get site specific when you can'? Or are you fine with best guesses.

Couldn't stay away.

[Philsuma]

Rich,

There can always be "acceptable" small parasite levels. We know that. Lets' keep this thread back on Site / Locale specific though.

My personal stance on imports?

Site Specific and GPS information is the holy grail of the hobby, IMO and what we should all strive and shoot for. I'd love to be the first person to do it - go to Panama and photo document habitat, ranges of the morphs that have large populations with GPS data ect. I think the scientific data and "jump" in the Hobby would be extraordinary and precedent setting.

But unless I do it myself (catch the animals), I am sceptical of others who claim their animals are 100% this, or 100% that. I give the benefit of doubt to hobbyists that I respect and collections and warehousing that I have seen with my own eyes. I refused to swallow the Frog Farm stories and I'm pretty sure in the last 5 years, we have debunked that myth.

I'm going to continue to patronize and recommend those individuals who I truly believe are good for the hobby - some offer site specific animals and some do not. It's not close to being an all or nothing, black or white concept at this stage. The few people that I will help throw under the bus are the one's that take advantage of others through business lies and that sell suspect animals. The three or 4 people that I mentioned above are WELL above that line.

[RichFrye]

Simply put Phil, you have the chance to work with what you consider "holy grail" frogs which are very attainable and well from crazy-expensive, yet you chose not to. Why? Especially when it's the hobbyist like myself who more times than not are the ones actually breeding the "holy grail" frogs?

[Philsuma]

Simply put Phil, you have the chance to work with what you consider "holy grail" frogs which are very attainable and well from crazy-expensive, yet you chose not to. Why?

It could be as simple as you not inviting me over for a beer and to view your collection, yet.

My Condo is 8 miles from Marcus's warehouse. My Pa townhouse is 1 hour from Sean Stewarts. I travel to all the North Eastern shows and collections, meeting and speaking to hobbyists face to face. Getting to know them.

2012 Frog Day is in your backyard. I'd like to think that I'll come home from there with some site specific stuff :wink: