[Philsuma]

F1, F2 : “F” stands for 'filial' meaning 'of son or of daughter'.

F1 generally means that they are offspring from wild caught and F2 offspring of F1, etc. However, in genetics F1 typically refers to offspring from distinctly different parents. Some froggers will consider the offspring of two non-related frogs to be F1.

2 Wild Caught adult frogs produce F1 offspring

F1 adults produce F2 offspring

F2 adults produce F3 offspring (pretty rare, especially in obligates)

[DKOOISTRA]

Why is F3 rare? Is F3 reffering specifically to brother/sister, not necessarily from the same clutch, but from the same parents? Then if they are introduced to different "partners", it starts over at F1? I always thought of it as a generational thing...
Derek

[Philsuma]

If you pair up an F3 to and F1 ? Hmmmm....you'd have to be going backwards....

F3, or Third Generation pumilio requires excellent and advanced husbandry skills, is all. Not that many people breed them to F1, let alone produce 2-3 generations.

[Michael Lawrence]

In many cases like Imitators there is no real reason to even consider breeding frogs to f2 or f3 as there are so many of them around. As a hobby better management of whats here is needed. Leave the f2,f3 stuff to the frogs that are rarer and keep the lines open. You can go atleast ten years without the need of crossing offspring. That is more than enough wait time to find new blood in most cases.

Michael

[DKOOISTRA]

I should have phrased that differently...
Say that you have 2 froglets from breeding pairs of F2 pums (for arguments sake) same import, different parents, if you take 1 froglet from 1 set of parents, and another froglet from another set of parents, match them up, and down the road get offspring then technically, isnt their offspring F1 again? As they are from genetically different parents? Or, is it too late, have i worked too many hours and am i going waaaaay to deep with my thinking and making something simple complex (Im an engineer, i do that all the time)
Derek

[Michael Lawrence]

If the two F2 pairs are unrelated yes you would have F1's but not from a new line, they would be listed as LineXLine.

Michael

[DKOOISTRA]

Got it, thanks Michael
Derek

[frogface]

Geez... that's all clear as mud, lol.

Phil, does that mean that my froglet from your F1 and my F1 is an F1 because of 2 distinctly different parents? And that an F3 is the product of related F2 parents? I thought F3 meant 3rd generation from any F2 frogs. Sill not understanding why F3 would be difficult to produce.

(sorry, I keep editing because I don't know wtf I'm talking about)

[DKOOISTRA]

Thats what i thought, that the "F" simply denoted generation. I dont understand the F3 being difficult though, unless its pretty much that it would take 3 years or more to get to that group, and that they would all have to be mom/ dad, then brother/sister, then basically grandaughter/grandson? It interests me because of my darklands, they are Tuss line and not many (from what i understand) around. I got them as a probable pair from Andy (Brooklyn dart frogs) and have 3 froglets hopping around now.

[Philsuma]

LoL....I'm not a geneticist. This is my take on it.

Technically, an F1 and F2 are direct generations from that singular breeding pair only.

Once you introduce another Frog - whatever, WC or CB of any generation, you start back to F1 for THAT particular pairing.

So yes....your little pum in the can, is still an F1, technically.

[Philsuma]

Thats what i thought, that the "F" simply denoted generation. I dont understand the F3 being difficult though, unless its pretty much that it would take 3 years or more to get to that group, and that they would all have to be mom/ dad, then brother/sister, then basically grandaughter/grandson

This is how I take it.

F3 is "hard to attain" because three generations....is.....tough to do in this hobby. It would take years. Frogs die.

[Michael Lawrence]

Well its been done by more than you think. Its like this, Take the new Patricias I got back in 1999 when they first came in and I bred them in 2002 and sold out the froglets. Everyone bought them in groups of 3 to 4. They raised the siblings and bred them. That created F2. Then they sell a few offspring and the next person raises them and breeds the siblings again. You now have F3. This is done far more than you realize. The only issue is most of the hobby does nothing to track and know where their frogs come from.
By Now Id bet that Patricia line is well passed F4 maybe F5.

It can be done alot quicker with obligates and thumbs that mature at 6 months or so.

Michael

[jig1]

So having f3 is a good thing?

[Philsuma]

Yep. Shows that the Breeder knows what he is doing and is dedicated.

[DKOOISTRA]

My assumption though would be that its acceptable (F3), but the farther you go with it the worse it is in terms of inbreeding. Wouldn't that be true ? Ive read that you have to go a long way before you have issues, I think Ive seen Michael post before where F10 is acceptable, but eventually, I think other issues would arise.
Derek

[itskris]

Ok just a hypothetical question.

If you have an F3 and it breeds with an F1 would the offspring be considered F2? Or do you just call them
F3xF1
So then the F3xF1 has little babies with an F2... Do those offspring become
(F3xF1)xF2... Or if your calling the F3xF1 an F2 and it pops offspring with another F2 do you get F3?

Weird question I know... But I had to ask.

[DKOOISTRA]

Its funny, but i wonder how many "issues" there are like this, where people think they know, but dont? This is a pretty "simple" topic, but I think an important one to understand...and clearly, a number of us dont

[frogface]

Ok just a hypothetical question.

If you have an F3 and it breeds with an F1 would the offspring be considered F2? Or do you just call them
F3xF1
So then the F3xF1 has little babies with an F2... Do those offspring become
(F10xF1)xF2... Or if your calling the F3xF1 an F2 and it pops offspring with another F2 do you get F3?

Weird question I know... But I had to ask.

Hah! Thanks! I was going to ask this but couldn't figure out how to do it.

[DKOOISTRA]

Or are we "F"ing it all up...

[Philsuma]

My assumption though would be that its acceptable (F3), but the farther you go with it the worse it is in terms of inbreeding.
wouldnt that be true? Ive read that you have to go a looong way before you have issues, i think ive seen michael post before where F10 is acceptable yet, but eventually, i think issues would arrize?
Derek

Now you're getting into the business side of things and not the science side, I think.

For selling offspring, a case can be made for "weaker" genetics, the further generationally, we go.

but

Keep in mind that a lot of the sipaliwini Tinc populations are only found in "island like" oasis encircled by savanahs, so no new blood is coming in and the entire population is existing and breeding by itself.

Some thoughts.