"Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

[ecichlid]

I think Aaron and Dave are on the same page more than they might think. By the contentious tone of the last few posts, it may be hard to see that.

[Dendro_Dave]

Dude, just because you write more doesn't make it true. You've taken most everything out of context, forgot that women can be lesbians(they can't be because men might not have people to have sex with?) and can not see how flawed your arguments are.
First, hybrids are natural, that argument is gone.

No but poking holes in your arguments does, and showing how you didn't understand mine in the first place helps too....

I said "homosexuals", and last I checked that group includes lesbians. My point was what they do doesn't risk breeding all the straight people out of existence, like what might happen if the designer frogs become so mixed with ours, that basically ours cease to exist. So basically your argument didn't even have a valid point, because it wasn't just that I don't like what the designer frog people wanna, but because it could destroy even the possibility of what I want to do forever. I don't have a magic pill to turn everyone straight, and if I did I wouldn't force it down their throat. That is basically what the designer froggers are doing, because we can't prevent people from doing it, or accidents happening.

Second, hybrids have been here since the beginning and have been created by people such as Patrick Nabors(thru a zoo) and Christina Hanson and Todd Kelley( a beautiful leuc x azureus) amongst others, since the beginning. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater just blowing up your argument that the ones who came before deserve respect. No one OWNS the hobby.

Yes things like that happened, but did you notice that they mostly stopped? ...and do you realize that stuff is in part what led to the anti hybrid stance? The community was different then, the culture still finding its identity. It was a bit more of anfree for all, but enough people wanted it to be different then other hobbies where it was OK, so they respected that and we moved on and evolved even further from that being OK.

I think that they were willing to change to be inline with community consensus demands a lot of respect. Plus even if we don't like everything they've ever done, they have done enough to earn many peoples respect, again mpressive.

Third, you continually play on what "the hobby" wants but you and no one else can speak for it.

I have every right to speak for myself, and so does everyone else. The fact that so many of us that make up the core hobby stand up for same principals is in effect the hobby's gereral consensus speaking for itself.

But if your right then what gives you or anyone else the right to say hybrids are OK and that we just have to accept it? Be thankful your arguement wasn't very sharp, because it could cut both ways... except there is still that pesky huge difference in that we can't stop you, but whether you intend to or not the consequences of your actions could be dire to us.

fourth, your other argument about being raped and asking for it, no, you are looking for sex and you didn't do enough of a background check and let the wrong person in. No one owes it to you to only have suitors available which fit your needs.

I think we all owe it to each other not to be theives, murders or rapists. Don't I have every right to want those people no where near me? We've been pretty clear we don't want people Willing to do the designwr thing against our wishes. So we said ,"no, and we meant "NO"

But lets say I unsespectingly open the door for a rapist. By your argument I've basically given them the right to rape me no matter how many times I say no or otherwise tried to deter them.

Howe ever you phrase it, it amounts to us being vulnerable and them taking advantage regardless of the risk to us or what we had, or what we want. Or us trying to stop them. You are basically saying since we didnt stop them, couldnt or wouldnt run away that everyone is justified in freely taking advantage of our situation.

And again your arguement better serves our side, because we don't owe it to you to stand by and watch you Breed the frogs we love out of existence or to have your perfect franken frog made to order, when you show up and decide what we have isn't good enough for you.

Again where we win the moral high ground is that we do doesn't doesn't actually stop you, but if you succeed to much we could be completely screwd. Us succeeding just insures your chance for hybrid frogs lives on.

Fifth, where do you draw the line. 5-10 a year per hobbyist is ok but one company producing hundreds is too much? Why do you think ALL these hybrids will automatically be bred into pure populations? Are you guys really that lax in your qualifications for breeding programs. I think we've identified the bigger problem then.

Fewer the better, it is a small hobby so a occasional one hurts but it as long as it is rare the damage is minimal, and at least partially reversible. That one company is attempting to do it in a massive scale. A few bumps in the road occasionally we can deal with, but they wanna carpet bomb the city.

The problem other then willful liars, are the ones that just don't care much and don't know the origin of their frogs. Every time frog history is lost it increases the chance that someone unethical, or ignorant will pass a mix off as a pure blood, aking any kind of management more difficult, and if you can't see how a designer free for all won't make things even worse, then you must either be naive or just don't understand the argument.

sixth, pure frogs are not the default to the hobby.

Really except for public enemy #1 I rarely see mixed morph or species frogs for sale. Do some maybe contain tiny bits of other morph nor species DNA, maybe... probably in many cases but it isn't so bad yet that we feel they can't be reasonably thought not as close enough. Big difference to us between a frog that is 98% blue azure us, and one that is 50%... One holds more meaning form us and In don't see an ethical reason for you to put that meaning through a blender.

seventh, you can't say hybrids aren't worth anything and then say that they'll be buying up all the wc to make new hybrids to make cash off the newest one. Most of your argument is just "I want and I don't want to do" and i'm better because..." and if you have no horse in the race you see it for what it is, whining. There is an easy way out but instead you guys just want to whine and complain. Wouldn't it be funny if there was a hybrid dart frog breeding site that tracked all teh lineages of hybrid and outcrossed frogs and they actually tracked everything. Who would be more conservation oriented then? And they did things like not dust and no meds and just bred for the healthiest specimens in captivity and actually made a frog selected to be hardy in these glass boxes, to resist common diseases and do better with lo air movement and very hi humidity.

I think you are failing to differentiate between value to us and value to them. New WC stock has value to them because not introduces more things they can warp or warp in certain ways. If it is new we want it just becausenit is new and beautiful as is or will help us keep our lines viable without totally corrupting them.

I've said before if we could have a designer hobby that didnt risk what we have then fine, and someone doing that would be a step in the right direction, but as soon as those frogs fall into the hands of the uninformed it unethical they represent a threat, so even trying to have a responsible designer hobby piles more risk into us. Why should we risk our hobny just because it isn't good enough for you? ... And how does that entitle you to take it upon yourself to do something that may destroy what we have? ...I haven't heard a good argument supporting that position as an ethical one, because none of them account for then risk being forced on us against our will.

[Dendro_Dave]

I think Aaron and Dave are on the same page more than they might think. By the contentious tone of the last few posts, it may be hard to see that.

Can you clarify? Mostly I see him trying to expand tiny degrees of change into massive ones that he thinks should lead us to just throwing in the towel. Like all those arguments that amount to throwing the baby out with the bath.

And then there are the instances where he didn't understand my response to his example like the homosexual thing, and tried to rephrase mine and warp the meaning to support his side. I don't know if he honestly didn't get it or if he was willfully trying to manipilate the context and meaning in the hopes no one would notice...either way it wasn't valid.

So there seems to be a huge divide here...

We it seems have no right to expect people to respect our wishes, but are the bad guys when we don't respect theirs.... Even when theirs puts us at risk, and all we can really do to them is bitch about how they may destroy what we love. Somehow he fails to see an ethical dilemma there.

It repeatedly blows my mind that they seem to feel us bitching carries the same moral/ethical burden as the risk they pile on to us.against our will... oh and they seem to be more entitled to bitching also.

Basically they want us to shut our mouth son they can out everything we care about at risk to get their way, and not feel guilty about forcing that risk upon us or when bad things happen to us because of them.

... Pretty sweet deal for them, not sure what we get out of it except the opportunity to find a new hobby when ours is gone or an utter cluster F#$% thanks to them.

I see little common ground on this issue at least.

[Roadrunner]

This "it's going to ruin the hobby for us" holds no water. Show me, in a hobby where they want locale specific genetics, that hybrids have run out the pure breds? Not 1. I showed that panther chameleons have both hybrid and pure bred. So do leachies. THERE IS NO RISK IN BREEDING OUT ALL THE PUREBREDS IN THE HOBBY. YOU ARE FEARMONGERING! The hobby is just owning and breeding PDF's, the default, if you want pure bred hybrid etc. you look for what you want. Most of the first frogs bred were hybrids(cross breds) from different imports of auratus or bicolor or tricolor, etc.
The attitude is what's disgusting. People telling people to cull their frogs because they are hybrid(cross morph), short quick answers of NO to mixing with no explanations and saying we want to distance ourselves from these scum as much as we can IS the problem. i'm nowhere near Dave in my attitude in all of this.
Your analogy of getting raped was even worse! You choose to buy and have dart frogs, it is no where akin to being raped but you are actually trying to make that analogy. That's worse than the worst Hitler analogy I have ever heard! Still you try to fault my logic and see no problem with yours, EVEN THOUGH THE ANALOGY AND CONCLUSION ARE FALSE!
Now I couldn't care less whether you make hybrids, accept them, spit on them or cull them. The arguments to justify your stance are getting a little bit unsettling to me so I'm done.

Risk being forced on you, mememememememe. That's all I hear. What about them? You want them to respect you but you have no respect for them, HMMMMMM........ As I said, easy fix with a little work if that's what you want. If it happens(which it won't) you have no one to blame.

Again, it would be HILARIOUS if they started a hybrid family tree website. It would show you guys that THEY are actually more worried about the frogs than YOU GUYS are.

[Roadrunner]

Phil your edit system sucks!!!!

"The Hobby" has never cared about hybrid frogs because no one registers their frogs. They say that they don't want them but don't have anything in place other than bitching to do anything about it. So if you step back and look at it, THAT is the hobby's stand on crossing. We care enough to tell people not to do it but really it's not a priority.

And all this because of a practice that is no worse for the frogs, and probably better, than most of the practices in the hobby now. It comes strictly from an emotional ego standpoint and has nothing to do with the well being of the frogs. But people hold it hi enough to divide and shun people from the hobby over. Well don't make any enemies hobby because your achilles heal is wide open.

[Philsuma]

Same edit system as any other board or forum. Ten minutes.

[Roadrunner]

So the moral to this story? Register your frogs and you'll never have to worry about being raped.

[Roadrunner]

No, not at all, 75% of the boards I'm on have no time out on editing. DB and this one are the only ones that have a time out on editing.

[joneill809]

It seems like there is a need on the boards for a "bad guy" to focus energy on. Whether that's a hobbyist or organization, a lot of energy gets directed at posting on the perceived problem. I have to wonder if all that energy would be better spent focusing on projects that can help the portion of the hobby "we" care about.

As the frog hobby grows in popularity large scale breeders will pop up to meet that demand if it's there. Cheap frogs for transient hobbyists that don't really care bout anything than "colorful pet frogs" are a segment of the hobby that is not going to be dropping by the boards. The smaller segment limited to dedicated long term keepers that care about locales, lineages and breeding programs will be a smaller, more focused group (cough cough if you are reading this....). Both are ok. And like Phil said, play with the kids you like.

I don't think we'll ever get tracking systems adopted widely, but I know a core group of Lorenzo keepers that are absolutely interested in this for a specific locale amongst < 10 keepers. I think targeted programs like that can work. Perhaps we should be looking at other successful organizations to model programs after:
http://carespreservation.com

The CARES Preservation Program has four major objectives:

• to bring AWARENESS to the critical situation of fish in nature, while EDUCATING the public and stressing the importance of our roles as RESPONSIBLE aquarists;
  
• to RECOGNIZE, ENCOURAGE, and offer SUPPORT to hobbyists who maintain species at risk;
  
• to SHARE fish as well as data and experiences through notes and manuscripts so that others may learn to maintain those identical and similar species; and
  
• to PRESERVE species at risk for future generations.

Please note that the CARES Preservation Program is designed to be easy and enjoyable! You may decide to start out with the basic elements, and grow from there. As the purpose of CARES is to encourage hobbyists to devote tank space to one or more species at risk, offering that species a future of hope, if you have done that, you have done well!

I pulled this snippet because it addresses another problem past attempts at registries had - they were not easy based on feedback from others (not me) that went through the process. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was the impression I got from reading the boards. Now we can blame the hobbyists for not registering, or we could look at the registration process and improve it to meet the needs of those whom it serves. As CARES points out, it's about hobbyists AND their animals. You have to factor in the needs of both. If we want a registry, it has to be geared toward the hobby in a stepped manner that encourages participation in a positive way.

My semi-rant here is an open request to try and come up with positive ideas and methods that advance the hobby. We've had attempts in the past that failed - just complaining about how other people are doing things (hybrids) or about how they didn't register (past attempts) is not going to fix anything.

• What went wrong with the first attempt? Why was it not adopted?
  
• How do you setup programs for common animals (e.g. azureus) versus rare animals (e.g. Lorenzo, standard lamasi)?
  
• What's a 2.0 registry going to look like?

This is likely a different thread, but my question is, how do we harness all the negative focus on hybrids/DFC/DFW/"insert hobbyist name here" and get started on doing what is right for our portion of the hobby?

[Dendro_Dave]

This "it's going to ruin the hobby for us" holds no water. Show me, in a hobby where they want locale specific genetics, that hybrids have run out the pure breds? Not 1. I showed that panther chameleons have both hybrid and pure bred. So do leachies. THERE IS NO RISK IN BREEDING OUT ALL THE PUREBREDS IN THE HOBBY. YOU ARE FEARMONGERING! The hobby is just owning and breeding PDF's, the default, if you want pure bred hybrid etc. you look for what you want. Most of the first frogs bred were hybrids(cross breds) from different imports of auratus or bicolor or tricolor, etc.

Will everything be ruined? ...probably not, but we gave you lots of examples on DB of where designer plants and animals have harmed the hobby. I'm not retyping them all here. Even if one morph gets bred out of existence or diluted to the point it doesn't breed true, then that is plenty of damage, and not worth having that risked forced onto us.

The attitude is what's disgusting. People telling people to cull their frogs because they are hybrid(cross morph), short quick answers of NO to mixing with no explanations and saying we want to distance ourselves from these scum as much as we can IS the problem. i'm nowhere near Dave in my attitude in all of this.

Actually people often get highly detailed responses or pointed to them at least. I'm not an fan of the few who say cull, but stopping their breeding and not sell/trading works for me and is enough for most. Now who is fear mongering?

Your analogy of getting raped was even worse! You choose to buy and have dart frogs, it is no where akin to being raped but you are actually trying to make that analogy. That's worse than the worst Hitler analogy I have ever heard! Still you try to fault my logic and see no problem with yours, EVEN THOUGH THE ANALOGY AND CONCLUSION ARE FALSE!
Now I couldn't care less whether you make hybrids, accept them, spit on them or cull them. The arguments to justify your stance are getting a little bit unsettling to me so I'm done.

Yes I faukt your understanding of the argument and the example used to illustrate it again, or are you just willfully trying to skew it?

Here is the real meaning since you missed it, again. I was saying that them taking advantage of us while in a vulnerable position after we say no, is akin to rape or being victimized in general, because we said we didn't want it, we can't stop them, and what they do outs what we have at risk, so potential harm is done against us. Your argument amounted to it being our fault because we were vunerable and couldn't protect ourselves better. Like the "she was asking for it, did you see the way she was dressed... pluse she should habe said no more times or fought beck harder or ran.... so its her fault." analogy. Maybe that wasnt what you meant but the argument you made was functionally equivalent to the examples ai offered before you misunderstood and attempted to misrepresent them.

Risk being forced on you, mememememememe. That's all I hear. What about them? You want them to respect you but you have no respect for them, HMMMMMM........ As I said, easy fix with a little work if that's what you want. If it happens(which it won't) you have no one to blame.

Again, it would be HILARIOUS if they started a hybrid family tree website. It would show you guys that THEY are actually more worried about the frogs than YOU GUYS are.

What about them? We can't stop them, just bitch about it. But they get to bitch too, and if things go to far can actually stop us from doing what we want...So big difference, and why your argument actually works better for ourside. We respectfully asked for respect, and were told to go F ourselves. We can't stop them, but they could potentially stop us and they seem in your mind to have every right to put what we love at risk, but we are expected to hand them what they want and keep our mouth shut?

The hybrid family tree would be a nice gesture but nothing prevents those frogs from falling into the hands of the uninformed or unethical and unknowingly getting mixed with ours, till ours poop out frog lets that look nothing like the prior frog lets we were getting from pure stock. Until you can guarantee things like that won't happen, we have no incentive to risk it or to trust them... especially since if they are willing to tell us to screw off, that suggest they arn't very concerned about us or our animals genetic integrity. Why should we care that they can't blend frogs without pissing off people, hat have good reasons for getting pissed of since it puts their passion at risk.

[Dendro_Dave]

By the way my comments relating homosexuality and rape basically amounted to, me not caring what they do because it doesn't harm me, and that rape or victimizing anyone who is vulnerable isn't justified just because they couldn't stop you. If that unsettles you then, wow you are unsettling me now.


Especially since one of your arguments was basically that it is our fault because we didn't protect ourselves... I'm sorry but that argument is structured the same as " She was asking for it, did you see the way she was dressed!?"

Everyone go read it again, and tell me if his argument doesn't take the same form.

[Dendro_Dave]

By the way my comments relating homosexuality and rape basically amounted to, me not caring what they do because it doesn't harm me, and that rape or victimizing anyone who is vulnerable isn't justified just because they couldn't stop you. If that unsettles you then, wow you are unsettling me now.


Especially since one of your arguments was basically that it is our fault because we didn't protect ourselves... I'm sorry but that argument is structured the same as " She was asking for it, did you see the way she was dressed!?"

Everyone go read it again, and tell me if his argument doesn't take the same form.

He manipulates the context and meaning of those statements, and then labels his version as mine... saying it is unsettling to damage my credibility in others eyes. That or he just got it entirely wrong... Again.

[Dendro_Dave]

P.S. I do agree with him that the allotted editing time is way to short compared to DB or some other forums, it is the single most frustrating thing about posting here when you do intricate posts with links, pics, vids, multi quotes and other BB code. By the time I notice the mistake, find it in the post and correct it, all to often time is up, hence the 2 extra posts just to finish what I wanted to say. Even worse when trying to do it on a phone in the allotted time.

[Roadrunner]

NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING TO YOU WHEN THEY HYBRIDIZE. RAPE IS FORCED ON SOMEONE, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY DART FROGS!!! You are wilfully participating in an act, owning frogs, no one is forcing you as in rape.
And now I have Ed trying to sidetrack the whole argument because he thinks that dusting and feeding dogfood to your feeders is the same thing(he should really change his statement to "that is not supported by MY INTERPRETATION of the literature, since that's really what it is). Feeding dog food will never give your frogs hypervitaminosis or overcalcification. There is a difference, just because he attaches a paper to his statement, people will believe him. Also thru long term overvitiminizing and overmineralizing you are choosing for animals with absorption issues if you are overdoing the dusting.
You can't say that choosing your animals changes them and then add a scenerio which could kill or make certain animals unhealthy and say dusting is the same thing as something that is more metered and unable to cause hypervitaminosis or overcalcification. And if animals do have different requirements and toxicity levels on vit and min then they have evolved(changed) to handle those differences. Which means other animals can if their diet changes. Shoot even cats and dogs aren't supposed to have the same food because of different requirements.
This "hobby" is more and more like a religion each day. They even spew hate to the hybridizers like a real religion. Well that's enough negativity for me for a couple months. I hate to argue but I also hate bullying and seeing the arguments put forth makes me feel compelled to reply, so I guess I just have to go. Big waste of my time, I'm arguing with people who already made up their mind before they started talking to me.
Designer plants and animals didn't ruin the hobbies, that's what people wanted in those hobbies. You think the breeders forced people to buy those hybrids? The market sets itself out. What people want is what people breed, it wouldn't work otherwise.
How am I fearmongering? Should I post Scott's NO you can't mix them in response to mixing terribilis? How about the cull them! posts when hybrids were created as the persons first frogs? I don't have time for all this. I don't understand how you can't see that rape is a TERRIBLE analogy and used to associate hybridizers with rapists. You started the negative association. And Phil's comment about the dirty kids in the sandbox. You know what this reminds me of? Segragationism. Seperate but, well not even, equal.
You guys have claimed moral superiority in the "hobby" and set forth practices when teh hobby is only anyone who owns dart frogs, hybrid or purebred. Yet you speak for everyone and your only a fraction of the "hobby". I don't like conflict, I don't like negativity, I have a hard time converting words into thoughts. When I see "it's like they are raping us" when talking about buying frogs it throws me into a "mood" I'd rather not be in. I'm trying to hit a more zen point in my life and I guess these boards just sit in opposition to that goal.

[Dendro_Dave]

NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING TO YOU WHEN THEY HYBRIDIZE. RAPE IS FORCED ON SOMEONE, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY DART FROGS!!! You are wilfully participating in an act, owning frogs, no one is forcing you as in rape."

Skewed/Missed the point again... They aren't forcing me to buy frog, but are forcing on me more risk, that makes what I want less possible. It even has the potential to make it imosssible . But actually someone passing off a mixed frog that can't be ID'd short of a genetic test, is basically forcing a hybrid onto me by trickery. So its like I was out to get laid but someone slipped me a Micky(forcing me), and had sex with me then stole my kidney... so i was forced into the kinda sex I didn't want becoming a hybrid breeder) and lost a kidney (pure stock).

Forget the analogy for a moment, basically they are just taking advantage of us. Much of what they want to do could hurt what we have, and wanna keep having. We can only hurt their feelings but they can take pure stock and warp it into some frog we don't wanna keep, and as those frogs offspring continue through the hobby mixing with other pure frogs till there are no more, or at least considerable damage is done...we no longer even have the option of a hobby like we have....while the option always exist for them.

So yea they are doing something to me. They are making it much less certain that frogs will remain pure enough that I can still buy the frog I want, and not find out it is a hybrid when it has 4 different colors and patterns on it. They our putting the version of the hobby I find most enjoyable and the value/meaning I derive from owning "real" frogs, not mutts at risk. I'd mutts are the norm that makes getting what I want problematic at best, and potentially impossible if it gets out of hand.

You really don't see an ethical dilemma there?

They can always their way, they just have to put up with us being angry, but them getting their way puts ours at risk, and no amount of a get will ever bring those "real" frogs back, so the hobby I knew is effectively gone. Then my only choice is tknstay as part of the new designer hobby or leave. You see.no ethical problem in them forcing the risk of that onto me and others against our will?

now I have Ed trying to sidetrack the whole argument because he thinks that dusting and feeding dogfood to your feeders is the same thing(he should really change his statement to "that is not supported by MY INTERPRETATION of the literature, since that's really what it is). Feeding dog food will never give your frogs hypervitaminosis or overcalcification. There is a difference, just because he attaches a paper to his statement, people will believe him. Also thru long term overvitiminizing and overmineralizing you are choosing for animals with absorption issues if you are overdoing the dusting.
You can't say that choosing your animals changes them and then add a scenerio which could kill or make certain animals unhealthy and say dusting is the same thing as something that is more metered and unable to cause hypervitaminosis or overcalcification. And if animals do have different requirements and toxicity levels on vit and min then they have evolved(changed) to handle those differences. Which means other animals can if their diet changes. Shoot even cats and dogs aren't supposed to have the same food because of different requirements.
This "hobby" is more and more like a religion each day. They even spew hate to the hybridizers like a real religion. Well that's enough negativity for me for a couple months. I hate to argue but I also hate bullying and seeing the arguments put forth makes me feel compelled to reply, so I guess I just have to go. Big waste of my time, I'm arguing with people who already made up their mind before they started talking to me.
Designer plants and animals didn't ruin the hobbies, that's what people wanted in those hobbies. You think the breeders forced people to buy those hybrids? The market sets itself out. What people want is what people breed, it wouldn't work otherwise.
How am I fearmongering? Should I post Scott's NO you can't mix them in response to mixing terribilis? How about the cull them! posts when hybrids were created as the persons first frogs? I don't have time for all this. I don't understand how you can't see that rape is a TERRIBLE analogy and used to associate hybridizers with rapists. You started the negative association. And Phil's comment about the dirty kids in the sandbox. You know what this reminds me of? Segragationism. Seperate but, well not even, equal.
You guys have claimed moral superiority in the "hobby" and set forth practices when teh hobby is only anyone who owns dart frogs, hybrid or purebred. Yet you speak for everyone and your only a fraction of the "hobby". I don't like conflict, I don't like negativity, I have a hard time converting words into thoughts. When I see "it's like they are raping us" when talking about buying frogs it throws me into a "mood" I'd rather not be in. I'm trying to hit a more zen point in my life and I guess these boards just sit in opposition to that goal.

Many of your interpretations have been wrong from the start, so little of that surprises me. If I had to claim a religion, it would be Zen. But zen is about seeing yourself and other aspects of reality as they truly are, and from what I've seen in your posts you are smart but have some fundamental flaws in how you interpret info, and in the methodologies used to construct your arguments or counter arguments based on that info. These issues coupled with emotion seem to be preventing you from objectively processing data which will of course lead to faulty premises, and misunderstandings, and half truths that look like full truths, seeing what you want to see etc... etc.. and in the end arguments built on bad foundations don't endure.

I don't always agree with ED but usually i do, and he has a vast knowledge base. He is an even thinker with sound arguments backed by a ton of science. About the best I ever see happen is someone proves he isn't completely right, or there may be some wiggle room for another solution or view point... good luck with that fight, you'll need it.

[joneill809]

They aren't forcing me to buy frog, but are forcing on me more risk, that makes what I want less possible. It even has the potential to make it imosssible .

Much of what they want to do could hurt what we have, and wanna keep having. We can only hurt their feelings but they can take pure stock and warp it into some frog we don't wanna keep, and as those frogs offspring continue through the hobby mixing with other pure frogs till there are no more, or at least considerable damage is done...we no longer even have the option of a hobby like we have....while the option always exist for them.

They are making it much less certain that frogs will remain pure enough that I can still buy the frog I want, and not find out it is a hybrid when it has 4 different colors and patterns on it. They our putting the version of the hobby I find most enjoyable and the value/meaning I derive from owning "real" frogs, not mutts at risk. I'd mutts are the norm that makes getting what I want problematic at best, and potentially impossible if it gets out of hand.

They can always their way, they just have to put up with us being angry, but them getting their way puts ours at risk, and no amount of a get will ever bring those "real" frogs back, so the hobby I knew is effectively gone. Then my only choice is tknstay as part of the new designer hobby or leave. You see.no ethical problem in them forcing the risk of that onto me and others against our will?

Honestly I'm struggling with this a bit. I don't buy frogs:

• from people I don't know,
  
• without having discussed the history of the parents of the froglets I am buying,
  
• usually without seeing pictures or in person,
  
• without thoroughly checking feedback on the seller, and
  
• without talking to hobbyists that have been around longer than me about the frogs I am looking to buy.

This seemed like the recommended protocol advanced by the boards when I started out. It's buyer beware, and it's always been that way, and always will. I just don't see how DFW changes these due diligence protocols for what I would consider advanced hobbyists (those concerned about lineage, tracking, bloodlines, etc), no?

I don't see how anything is being forced on the hobby - it simply reinforces the sound advice I picked up on when researching on the boards - conduct your due diligence before your purchase and ensure you understand what you are buying. There's no way you are going to eliminate hybrids from the hobby. If you want an AKC registered dog you can pay the $$ and get one or if you want a mutt you can head to the shelter and pick one up for a fraction of the cost. I don't see AKC breeders trolling the shelters looking for stock there, so I guess I'm back to what I've said before, that the hobby will fragment as it matures, and that's ok.

I agree a tracking solution is necessary for those who want to participate, but I still don't see anyone proposing solutions or iterating on failed ones. Pounding a fist on a table saying don't make hybrids is not going to advance the cause for well managed CB populations. Carving out a niche in the larger hobby for frogs with lineage is the only practical solution I can see. How can we focus all this energy on an outcome that advances the hobby "we" want?

[Philsuma]

Bingo Jim.

There is just going to be a further split the hobby which is inevitable and again, no cause for sky is falling or zombie apocalypse.

[frogfreak]

If anything "due diligence" will be heightened for the more serious keeper and that can never be a bad thing IMO.

Like anything, there's serious hobbyists who scour for information on every level. Then there's the more casual keepers. Nothing wrong with that. I'd never been on a forum before Dart frogs. Never heard of them...I spend a lot of time on forums because the frogs fascinate me and never stop learning.

Laura and I purchased a hedgehog (Skittles :lol: ) last year and did our due diligence getting the care info. Talked to the breeder, did some forum surfing and other research, but have never done anymore. No need too and a lot of Dart frog keepers are the same. Most of them...Is Skittles some bastardized hybrid between a UK HH and an African HH? Don't know and don't care really...He's just a pet HH and we love em dearly. :mrgreen:

The point is, those that are less "into" the hobby and aren't as serious may not care if their frog is a hybrid. It's a cool frog in a glass box and that is all.

Yes, a new hobbyists could get serious about the hobby after discovering he/she purchased a hybrid. It sucks, but that is life isn't it. Live and learn?

Cheers,

[Dendro_Dave]

They aren't forcing me to buy frog, but are forcing on me more risk, that makes what I want less possible. It even has the potential to make it imosssible .

Much of what they want to do could hurt what we have, and wanna keep having. We can only hurt their feelings but they can take pure stock and warp it into some frog we don't wanna keep, and as those frogs offspring continue through the hobby mixing with other pure frogs till there are no more, or at least considerable damage is done...we no longer even have the option of a hobby like we have....while the option always exist for them.

They are making it much less certain that frogs will remain pure enough that I can still buy the frog I want, and not find out it is a hybrid when it has 4 different colors and patterns on it. They our putting the version of the hobby I find most enjoyable and the value/meaning I derive from owning "real" frogs, not mutts at risk. I'd mutts are the norm that makes getting what I want problematic at best, and potentially impossible if it gets out of hand.

They can always their way, they just have to put up with us being angry, but them getting their way puts ours at risk, and no amount of a get will ever bring those "real" frogs back, so the hobby I knew is effectively gone. Then my only choice is tknstay as part of the new designer hobby or leave. You see.no ethical problem in them forcing the risk of that onto me and others against our will?

Honestly I'm struggling with this a bit. I don't buy frogs:

• from people I don't know,
  
• without having discussed the history of the parents of the froglets I am buying,
  
• usually without seeing pictures or in person,
  
• without thoroughly checking feedback on the seller, and
  
• without talking to hobbyists that have been around longer than me about the frogs I am looking to buy.

This seemed like the recommended protocol advanced by the boards when I started out. It's buyer beware, and it's always been that way, and always will. I just don't see how DFW changes these due diligence protocols for what I would consider advanced hobbyists (those concerned about lineage, tracking, bloodlines, etc), no?

I don't see how anything is being forced on the hobby - it simply reinforces the sound advice I picked up on when researching on the boards - conduct your due diligence before your purchase and ensure you understand what you are buying. There's no way you are going to eliminate hybrids from the hobby. If you want an AKC registered dog you can pay the $$ and get one or if you want a mutt you can head to the shelter and pick one up for a fraction of the cost. I don't see AKC breeders trolling the shelters looking for stock there, so I guess I'm back to what I've said before, that the hobby will fragment as it matures, and that's ok.

I agree a tracking solution is necessary for those who want to participate, but I still don't see anyone proposing solutions or iterating on failed ones. Pounding a fist on a table saying don't make hybrids is not going to advance the cause for well managed CB populations. Carving out a niche in the larger hobby for frogs with lineage is the only practical solution I can see. How can we focus all this energy on an outcome that advances the hobby "we" want?

[Color="red"] Long version, short in next post…[/color]



OK bear with me as I try to clarify the logic some...

OK as it stands now a designer dart hobby is taboo. The people creating and disseminating designer frogs are either so naive they don't know it is taboo, didn't keep good track of origin info and for whatever reason don't bother to try, and then the unethical people who if it makes them a buck and they think they can get away with it will try.

Now as it stands the core hobbyist is relatively safe if they do their due diligence, because of the current system enforcing the taboo with peer pressure, mutual respect, education, etc..etc.. means that if a a hybrid and hybrid breeder pops up people find out usually and so much negative pressure is put on them that most probably stop, or scale it down to keep the frogs or only pass them to a few, and people known to have those frogs will have to be careful what they do. Because of all that we have a system that limits the degree of risk/damage from any one person's mistakes.or willful actions.

Now, picture a "Spiral", with the noobies, the uninformed, apathetic, and unethical on the outside lines. The people on the outside for whatever reason deviate from accepted practices most often, creating the most risk and will usually be the ones doing the most harm to our hobby in various ways, (Not saying they are all bad, even most... or that it is always intentional: just a fact that they already present us with the most risk and instances of harm). More of them free to do things that often come with more inherint risk of people taking advantage of others or just more opportunity for mistakes means more of both will happen, and that often leads to more and more and more of each as time goes on without some effective system of control.

Now as the line spirals inward the closer and closer you get to the center where the core hobbyist and their closest associates that tend to respect community standards there is usually going to be less sources of risk or actual harm, (except occasionally when one freaks, and spirals the wrong way out of control).

The core hobbyist is the most insulated and at the least risk if they play it smart, but the people further out can effect people in either direction, and those peoole and the people they effect can still effect the ones at or near the core, even if it is just a ripple effect... None of us exists in a vacuum.

Now our spiral isn't perfect, anyone/anywhere is always at some risk of being hurt or causing damage, but there is vigilance, limits, and controls.

Now imagine if we remove those limits, ease back on the peer pressure and potential negative consequences, and give people more opportunity to make mistakes, screw others unknowingly or on purpose... especially without a new better or equal systems of control.

It would be like our relatively safe and consistent spiral was suddenly interwinded with a long line of thorns... and booby traps that puts everything and everyone at more risk of finding a thorn or falling into a trap on that spiral who cared about what they have or being reasonably sure what they wanted was what they get...

Not all frogs originate from the core. Sometimes the core has to reach out to replace stock or to aquire animals new to the hobby. (Think importers, big distributors, and random people that snap up new and/or rare stuff and are either ignorant of our values, or just don't care). We would essentially be telling them all, "Free pass, do what you want even if it might hurt me or others and what we care about."

There is also the issue that few of any of us start at the core, in fact we probably travel back and forth sometimes, but hopefully overall towards the direction of least risk, least damage, becoming a better, more ethical and respectful hobbyist, that makes sure what is will endure best they can, and only risk it with community consensus (and assuming good reason).

More people feeling free to create designer frogs and accidents going unchecked means inherently more risk, and without a new equal or better set of controls that risk inevitably leads to damage, probably generating more risk and then damage to those who thought they were safe in the center are actually just surrounded... and screwed, the hobby as they knew and loves it... gone.

A tracking system is a nice idea, and would help... but many people already take it upon themselves to manage their collections, give that info to buyers and encourage them to do it too. But somewhere in the chain someone accidentally or intentionally screws up and it effects others in the chain. A better system is better, but it doesn't eliminate the risk especially when we remove otbwr controls and give everyone a free pass to make it more difficult for us to implemnt a system... because so many more people are crossing so many different things.



We have an imperfect system, true... and do I know how much damage will occur?... No, but I see ZERO evidence that there won't be at least more risk to many of us and what we care about. The proof that risk exist already is all the people that have hurt or been hurt by these practices in the past. Simple allowing more of it because we are tired of the drama or the other side growing large and bold enough they can't be influenced and those practices limited

People acting against a consensus asking not to be out at more risk, are then forcing that risk on them when they do it anyway.

Some of us our safer then others, usually because we have more experience in the hobby or just.make smarter more responsible decisions, but there is a whole range of people at different points on our spiral path tonl relative safety, and if most come to feel as the ones before then did who made it to the core, but if it is the wild west out there, those problems will be dragged inward and will become our problems eventually.

[Dendro_Dave]

*Edit* OK short version isn't all that short... call it version 2 instead

We have a system of checks and balances in place now. A general if occasionally vague set of accepted standard practices. However flawed it is responsible for us having the hobby we have in its current form... A form that celebrates the natural beauty of a creature as true to nature as almost is probably realistically possible.

We have already seen people hurt accidentally or intentionally by the creation of hybrids in a myriad of different ways. That it happens at all and mistakes or intentional deceptions occur whenever people are involved in anything, means that what we value is already at some risk despite whatever system of control we have in place now.

Relax that system and people will feel more free to test the limits of what is acceptable, and others will be less inclined to call them on it. Simply put; More people doing things that carry a degree of risk, chances for mistakes, or intentional deception means more are pretty certain to occur unless a equal or better system of control replaces it.

The people at then core who do their due diligence, are likely to be safer longer. But none of us exists in a vacuum. Even if just a ripple effect it will find us eventually, especially when more are freely doing things that we know have already hurt those who value some certainty what they wanted is actually what they get, and value a creature as close to its wild counterpart as possible.

We already have some level of management and tracking. Mistakes are made, people lie... it helps but it doesn't eliminate the risk of harm to what we have and continuing to have it in the future.

Better tracking is better, but especially when you make it more difficult by opening the flood gates on designer frogs; it is simply no guarantee of safety, no matter how much due diligence you do because you are human, they are human, shit happens and what we do effects others no matter how good we are at kidding ourselves it doesn't.

People taking it upon themselves to buck the accepted practices established before by others, are absolutely forcing change and new/more risk onto those people... or altering the landscape of risk that already exists, possibly faster then we can adapt.

We all start on the outside and work our way into the core where we are safer from the mistakes and abuses of others, but we are not separate entirely. Breeding stock dies, new frogs come in, noobs and undesirable people who may not share our values, may be the only choice if we want that new frog, or old frog lines to continue in the hobby.... and everyone makes a mistake, or compromises to some degree.