"Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

[Roadrunner]

Considering man wrote it, it doesn't matter anyway.

[thedude]

Your post suggests your interpretation is correct and the one I noted is wrong. but your interpretation is merely an opinion out of many on this complex topic. Since this seems to keep being quoted, lol, here is the actual verse to which I referred:

Nothing about the bible is "complex."

And by the way, humans are animals, I.e. "Beasts."

[RichFrye]

May I suggest that there is more than enough self-delivered non-science fuel to destroy porter's posts and sentiment without the need to even mention religion.
This coming from an atheist with Bible verse knowledge. Just when we were "coming together" theology raises it's head...

[JayMillz]

Designed frogs will be superior genetically.

How? Specifically...

Have you sequenced the entire genome of each of your species and figured out what each of the genes do and how to transfer them to offspring while eliminating the random chance of crossover or affecting other alleles at the same time? I doubt you have, but if you have, please use these skills for something more useful than making a frog look a different color. But anyways, how are your frogs genetically superior?

[edwardsatc]

Hey Rick,

Despite the fact that I've already given up nearly two days of my own LEGITIMATE research debunking the crap that you are spewing, I'm going to stay on top of this topic like flies on shit, or Ted Cruz on Obamacare, or Rich Frye on Sydney ...

In other words, it's going to be a long, long time before this topic goes away.

[edwardsatc]

Phil,

I know I've been critical of you bumping posts in the past, but I take it all back.

Bump until your hearts content! :wink:

[Dendro_Dave]

Hi there to you too!

Pseudonym? No. It is a board name as required. Not everyone uses their real name like Dillon.

We did not read all the stuff on the other board. We just quit.

In the context of what you wrote below:
1. The US and EU differences do not undermine the truth and power of Lotters, et al. work.
2. I do not understand the pyramid or ponzi scheme reference, but if you are seeking to name call or disparage us, then you are the board boss and can do what you wish. Man made, CAPTIVE BRED, designer morphs never suited for re-population is a cool idea, but some people hate glofish. I liked them until I found out most die before the juice sticks. Designed frogs will be superior genetically. Designer Frogs is a great name too! I am a big fan of trademarks. For example, aspirin was a trademark that somebody lost.
3. Nature breeds in the open, Captive Bred is in a box. Wow, I get it now, everyone has a drive for the wild and yet some refuse to admit the necessity of the box for health, purity, cleanliness, life span, etc. of the frog, and enjoyment for the owner. Dart frogs are still pets, box bred and raised.
4. Agreed, timmy and johnny probably should not breed if inexperienced, but having a cool frog pet in a box on your dresser in your room would have been awesome. I wish it were me decades ago!
5. I like this board. Toughness is good, being viscious and personally attacking is nonsense anywhere.

Yes, we are selling conventional pure line tincs at great prices, and will sell a Premium line too.

Our business model, and I would think the hobby, includes research that will, no doubt, benefit the captive bred sector. Captive bred frogs are not the same as wild caught. Captive bred quality is way better! The wild and imported wild caught ones are poison and disease prone, and they hurt the pet trade.

TheLordsPorter (Rick)

Please abandon your holy crusade to bring the hobby designer dart frogs. Most of the other people have covered the scientific side, so I'm going to focus on how you just keep ignoring what we want, and disrespecting our entire culture...

Points you should consider...
1. WE DON'T WANT DESIGNER DARTS. (Throw all the "science" at us you want, still doesn't change that fact.)
2. You are introducing confusion into a hobby that has enough of it. Your designer frogs, in time will find their way into inexperienced people's hands who don't know, or don't care and will muck up the gene pools of other frogs and then none of us will ever be reasonably sure that what we want to buy is actually what we get.
3. We want what we get, to actually be what we paid for... not your idea of what it should be.
4. You're missing the point that most of us want a frog that is a "snap shot" of it's wild brethren. Something representative of that locality/population/morph...whatever. While someday if the gene pools become to small we may be forced to mix very similar morphs or something, for now it seems the hobby does not want to play god any more then it absolutely has to. RESPECT THAT.
5. Admittedly I find hybrids, even the idea of designer darts intriguing. Maybe even GFP or true glowing frogs, but the hobby has made itself clear it isn't ready and/or doesn't want that. I respect that. It won't be me who brings them to the hobby, because I'm not selfish nor do I find it is my place to impose this on other people. RESPECT THAT.
6. Lotters is one guy... Harping on him and possibly misrepresenting his views in a way that is favourable to your agenda is not respectful of the "spirit of science". You're introducing personal bias to further your own agenda which we've already said.. WE DO NOT WANT THAT. RESPECT THAT!.

We've made it clear we don't want them. Your insistence in ignoring the many valid reasons we don't want them and also just ignoring the fact "WE DON'T WANT THEM!"... does not make these reasons/facts go away. It is disrespectful to everyone here.

I think it is awesome that you are so supportive of your son, but you and him are basically telling an entire hobby, an entire culture of people that what we want is nonsense, we're wrong... you're right, and you're going to shove your way down our throats whether we like it or not. (And for what?... A quick buck?) (Coincidentally this is also what pisses me off when people of certain religions do it to people not of those religion).

Also you're utter failure to respond rather then "just quit" over on Dendroboard, and your continued reliance on distasteful and misleading marketing techniques screams "We are about the bottom line, F the hobby!"... Another thing WE DON'T WANT!!!!!!

What you fail to realize is even if there is some validity in this "science" *cough* (pseudoscience, done by a couple of amateurs), is that... WE DON'T WANT IT! (It doesn't change anything. It doesn't invalidate our reasons for not wanting it)

You have basically just told an entire subset of the population, a culture unto its own to go F itself, "we're doing what we want... Screw you guys", and you expect to win friends? ...Acceptance?...NEVER.

the door out of the hobby.... Use it. Don't let it hit your ass on the way out.

..Or respect the hobby, the desires of your potential customers and be a positive force by not telling us all "to go F ourselves, we're all wrong and your interpretation of Lotters should be the foundation for how we all proceed in the hobby".

In the end, right or wrong, we don't want what you are selling... So stop trying to shove it down our throats and sell us something we actually do want!

[edwardsatc]

Rick,

Here are some related Lotters publications which contain information which further debunks your misinterpretation of Lotters et al. Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry

Wollenberg K. C, M. Veith, B. P. Noonan, S. Lötters (2006). Polymorphism versus species richness – Systematics of large Dendrobates from the eastern Guiana Shield (Amphibia-Dendrobatidae) . Copeia (4) 623-629

Wollenberg K. C, S. Lötters, C. Mora-Ferrer, M. Veith Disentangling composite colour patterns in a poison frog species (2008). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society 93(3):433-444

I'll spare you some embarrassment. Before you seize on the fact that names for populations are described as "Trivial names" in at least one of these publications, you should probably look up "trivial name" or "trivial epithet" as they relate to the field of taxonomy.

[Dendro_Dave]

P.S, You come off like a used car salesman, trying desperately to do anything and everything to justify why I should buy from you... That what you are selling is what I need, even if I don't want it... In the end, it is just distasteful/sleezy.

You could have a place in this hobby if you just sell nice healthy darts at good prices in a tasteful way with good buisness practices, but you are torpedoing your buisness from the start. If you do somehow manage to secure darts in chain pet stores or whatever your end goal is, and they go for your distasteful marketing BS, you''ll be firing a torpedo at our entire hobby, taking the first steps to turn it into some bastardized monstrosity like the leopard gecko/snake hobbies, that the majority of us hope we never become like. That makes you Dart frog public enemy #1. Congrats!

You burst onto the scene like the Kool-aid man, telling us we're all thirsty for what you're selling with your little Lotters cult, and shoving it down our throats to the point the entire hobby is in danger of drowning and/or being poisoned. We aren't drinking the Kool-aid!

Just admit it man... It's all about the bling isn't it?

[edwardsatc]

Now they've changed their "expert resources" page again. References to Lotters and the picture of the page in the book have been removed.

No worries. I've got captures of both

[pafrogguy]

They continue to do this actually. They caught a flaming on DB and removed the out in front renames of morphs. they changed some of their little trademark gimmicky BS around when someone called them out on that. A couple other things too. The way it really appears is most of us forgot more than they will ever know about dart frogs. They just come and post their "research" (which there is zero damn research going on there if they really think that the consensus among "professionals" is that we can mix them all together), get flamed for it, then change their site around to appease some folks. What do you get when you cross an oyapock with a giant orange? I don't know, but I am afraid we are going to find out.

[JayMillz]

Maybe Rick will realize he's lost this one before it's too late for him financially. If I were him, I'd liquidate it all and buy some pythons with that money and then go try to compete with Bob Clark maybe?

[Philsuma]

hopefully they will read this...

There is no 'uber' / untapped market for engineered frogs.

There just isn't.

Their business model, as it currently stands, will fail.

The ONLY thing that's unpredictable and unsure, is the size of the mess left behind.

[edwardsatc]

Maybe Rick will realize he's lost this one before it's too late for him financially. If I were him, I'd liquidate it all and buy some pythons with that money and then go try to compete with Bob Clark maybe?

Unfortunately, even if he were to liquidate it all, the frogs will still wind up in the hobby ...

I wish we would have caught wind of this a year or two ago when it was in the planning stages.

[frogfreak]

Maybe Rick will realize he's lost this one before it's too late for him financially. If I were him, I'd liquidate it all and buy some pythons with that money and then go try to compete with Bob Clark maybe?

Unfortunately, even if he were to liquidate it all, the frogs will still wind up in the hobby

All I keep thinking about is how many...

[edwardsatc]

All I keep thinking about is how many...

Yeah, me too.

We need to actively discourage not only hobbyists but also anyone who they may be trying to wholesale to.

I'll be letting several businesses know if they attempt to resell frogs from this breeder, they will lose me and my friends as a customers.

[Aarono Engstromo]

Just by the fact that albino darts can't survive for long enough to be suitable pets is a sign that this hobby is not like ball pythons and leopard geckos, and all other herps basically, who can be bred for $$$ for new morphs.

[Philsuma]

I created a new thread for 'All discussion re Dart/ ArtFrog Warehouse...please post all stuff relative to them here:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8102

It will be better served and archived ^^

[redeyetroyfrog]

Hi everyone, been a while since my name has been seen "over here", scanned through this thread quickly, noticed my name mentioned a few times, as it should be on this topic. Just wanted to clear the air and let everyone know I have not produced a cross breed frog since 2008 which everyone knew about. I made some mistakes as a "newb breeder" and I feel that I've learned from that huge mistake.

I will never produce another crossbreed (besides GR which shouldn't be considered crosses) ever again, I have never recommended crossing or mixing to anyone that has ever asked me questions. I ALWAYS say it can be very detrimental to the hobby and cause a lot of harm for this small community. And I usually also throw in " believe me I know this from experience"

The old alanicits that were in my possession have all died, when I moved out of my house 4 years ago, I left them and the 150 gallon tank at my parents house for them to care for. They lived in their maybe 2 years or so, then my mom got really sick and could no longer care for them. The tank is completely empty now. As far as the ones I gave to Richard, you would have to ask him the status on his. I wish I never let them out of my hands, that's my other big mistake I made, but being a broke kid right outta college, he traded me frogs to give me true morph pairs and I do thank him for that because that's what helped me start to become somewhat respected by some in the hobby.

I'm currently breeding
Azureus, saül, green Sipaliwini, blue Sipaliwini, giant orange, giant Regina, fine spot leucomelas varadero, CB bastimentos,

Not breeding but keeping
Koetari, 3 male drago colons(looking for a female), 3 FR bastimentos, 3 German green imitators

To end this update I will say this, YES in he past we had our differences but in the end you guys did help me turn my decisions around and I have been trying to do the right thing ever since.

[scott_r]

Is a Tinc a Tinc? Yes. And to be quite honest, I believe there are still offspring in the hobby of questionable lineage due to all tincs brought in back in the 80s and early 90s being sold simply as Tincs. Not a huge percentage, but some.
Are the different Tincs different species? No. But they are distinct populations of one species with a color pattern unique to that locale. And that is how the US hobby wishes to keep it. Yes, they are naturally occuring crosses, but they are just that. Natural occuring from a certain location.
Troy and I have actually had this conversation. I have studied patterns of tincs from certain locales and neighboring locales trying to see the connection. Just out of curiosity. Some locales are right next to each other.

But here is the thing. The color patterns these frogs have happened over several generations and hundreds of frogs. You may come up with a cool pattern crossbreeding frogs. However, you will then be line breeding those crosses to each other, and by F3 you will have a dull pattern. Plus, what will you do with all the offspring? No one wants to buy your frankenfrogs. I don't buy shit without proof of lineage.