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I do not believe these "farms" are producing 100% of what they are exporting. An extremely small portion are probably produced on site. I brought this to the attention of JP maybe two weeks ago. I found an interesting article (which I can not find now) that all (imported) O. pumilio in the US are field collected in Boca area. Like I said, I have researched frog farms for some time. I really do not see them as economically sound, as we cannot support them here in the states for the food industry.
Here is a good read on commercial frog farming for food, here are species producing 100's of eggs with little productions bringing profit.
http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/18514.pdf
http://cnre.vt.edu/extension/fiw/fisheri.../frogs.pdf
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
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JJuchems Wrote:I do not believe these "farms" are producing 100% of what they are exporting. An extremely small portion are probably produced on site. I brought this to the attention of JP maybe two weeks ago. I found an interesting article (which I can not find now) that all (imported) O. pumilio in the US are field collected in Boca area. Like I said, I have researched frog farms for some time. I really do not see them as economically sound, as we cannot support them here in the states for the food industry.
Here is a good read on commercial frog farming for food, here are species producing 100's of eggs with little productions bringing profit.
http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/18514.pdf
http://cnre.vt.edu/extension/fiw/fisheri.../frogs.pdf
I don't think any of us thought you ("or anyone with any experience with what has been going on the last 7-8 years") believed these to be real farms. They are obviously shams.
Very sustainable harvesting of wild animals is one thing. The first time I see locales coming in though that are not sustainable , then it jumps from 'why the hell would you support the 100% grabbing of non-specific pumilio locales' to
' now they are not ONLY ACTING OUTSIDE OF THE LAW (WC are illegally collected when used for simple export and not breeding), but also decimating populations.'
Real farming is very easily done. But not on a huge consumer level. Not the level where you pay $25 in the U.S. for a pumilio CB or actually FR.
We support these pens , why again?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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edwardsatc Wrote:Agreed.
The funny thing is that the most adamant claims that these farms do indeed exist and do indeed actually breed the animals exported comes from a well known breeder/importer who many claim as “well respected”.
Has always made me doubt the claims of site specificity from the same breeder /exporter …
Fool me once…
How many people would patronize a business that absolutely refuses to ever let you take a gander at their breeding and holding facility?
How about one that absolutely refused to let someone take current pics or tours of a "farm'?
Anyone (and there are many out there) who buys from the above mentioned importer is patronizing a business which is hiding something...or somethings...
Anybody been to Peru with Mark? No problems with tours there.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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RichFrye Wrote:How many people would patronize a business that absolutely refuses to ever let you take a gander at their breeding and holding facility?.
At least 89% of the Dart Frog Hobby in the U.S - I'm betting....
RichFrye Wrote:How about one that absolutely refused to let someone take current pics or tours of a "farm'?.
Same amount. Sucks but it's true.
RichFrye Wrote:Anyone (and there are many out there) who buys from the above mentioned importer is patronizing a business which is hiding something...or somethings....
About 55% of the U.S Dart Fros Hobby, IMO. I've seen firsthand, the hobbyists who were very willing to purchase those "European C.B pumilio" among others from a certain individual with a "less than sterling" hobby reputation. No problem there :roll:
RichFrye Wrote:Anybody been to Peru with Mark? No problems with tours there.
I missed this trip, but has any of the 8-10 "active" hobbyists that went to Peru, ever posted a thread on the actual Farming or acquisition part of Mark's Operation ? I haven't see or heard anything......
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Philsuma Wrote:RichFrye Wrote:How about one that absolutely refused to let someone take current pics or tours of a "farm'?.
Same amount. Sucks but it's true.
If it sucks Phil, why do you personally patronize someone's business who absolutely will not let you see his breeding and holding facility? Someone who STILL whole heartedly is sticking to and broadcasting to the world a HUGE lie?
Must be that absolutely NOBODY is breeding pums and selling their CB offspring...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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I keep forgetting ...the "FR" pums are cheap.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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I have also patronized a Miami "general animal" Importer, where all the pumilio were kept in a medium sized old, wooden rabbit hutch with spagnum that I bet was not changed out in years.
I personally hand selected 10 of the biggest, best coloured and apparently - healthy pumilio.
out of those 10:
1 died in the deli cup on the hour long drive back to my condo
2 died in the next 2-3 days
3 died in the next 2 or so weeks
2 more died at some point - not more than 3 months or so later
and
2 survived and continue to, as of this day.
All frogs succumbed quickly and did not waste away. No necropses.
I patronized this business for one reason only - to be able to say "When I talk about imports ,I know what the F' I'm talking about, because I've BEEN there and DONE that" . I've seen the warehouses in SoFl.
As everyone knows, I've been to Marcus's warehouse as well and hand selected frogs there too. His facility is wonderful and clean compared to the above. He is knowledgeable and caring about the animals he has. I think by now (I would hope) is that most people are aware that there are no pumilio farms. Are there imitator farms ?
I have a "BAR" that I have personally raised with regards to my own opinions on business ethics and who to patronize. The film can smugglers, the "big city" flippers / hustlers, the wooden rabbit hutch importers, the "kingsnakers" are all UNDER that bar and I'll never get frogs from them again.
Marcus is above the bar, due largely to the state of his facility and the care and condition of the animals there. I've seen it.
So Rich, other than yourself, please provide a list of the people / businesses /breeders who you feel we should patronize.
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Philsuma Wrote:So Rich, other than yourself, please provide a list of the people / businesses /breeders who you feel we should patronize.
Simply, any of the HUNDREDS of hobbyists who breed pums .
Support the hobby, or support the WC importing businesses.
Is it really so hard to find a person who breeds pums guys? No. It MAY be hard to find one who sells them cheap though.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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RichFrye Wrote:How many people would patronize a business that absolutely refuses to ever let you take a gander at their breeding and holding facility?
How about one that absolutely refused to let someone take current pics or tours of a "farm'?
Anyone (and there are many out there) who buys from the above mentioned importer is patronizing a business which is hiding something...or somethings...
Anybody been to Peru with Mark? No problems with tours there.
No idea how many people do, but I can tell you that I'm not one of them. I have no interest in doing business with someone who is willing to tell me, what I consider, a lie --- regardless of their husbandry skills. Like I said, fool me once ...
IMO, the business practices that you and I have alluded to above are dubious at best.
Donn
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And I'd be willing to bet my collection that, other than a few of the rarer morphs that have come in, his pumilio source in Panama is the same source as Strictly, etc ...
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Oh I absolutely PUSH HARD for all hobbyists especially new ones to NOT buy WC stuff (even from Marcus) and to go with CB animals.
I also fight back against all non scientific threads on DB that say "Gee...all WC stuff looks so vibrant and more colourful than the CB stuff because it eats "better" foods and they also BREED "better". All B.S in my opinion.
It's gotten back to me that some people are trying hard to discredit all "eldorado" morph pumilio - saying that since there is no "data" on them, they are wide ranging mutt frogs and should not be bred back into the hobby. So all my "eldorado" morph pumilio are to be looked down on...since I got them from Marcus ? Or that they are non site specific in general ? Are they worthless ?
So when you say "patronize the hundreds of hobbyists that produce CB pums"....does that mean only the ones not from Marcus ? Because there are quite a lot of CB frogs from his imported WC frogs.
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edwardsatc Wrote:And I'd be willing to bet my collection that, other than a few of the rarer morphs that have come in, his pumilio source in Panama is the same source as Strictly, etc ...
hmmmm....It is possible,but when all those Escudo came in....I somehow don't think that Marcus would be able to pry all those "high end" pums away from Mike and Ray, had they all been part of the same shipment. They may not know frogs as much as Reptiles, but I'm sure Strickley would have wanted a chance to bite a nice little piece of that luscious Escudo apple and not let Marcus have it all.
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As I said in my post "other than a few of the rarer morphs that have come in".
All too frequently, when he gets a bunch of pumilio in, strictly is offering the same morphs. Coincidence?
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Philsuma Wrote:It's gotten back to me that some people are trying hard to discredit all "eldorado" morph pumilio - saying that since there is no "data" on them, they are wide ranging mutt frogs and should not be bred back into the hobby. So all my "eldorado" morph pumilio are to be looked down on...since I got them from Marcus ? Or that they are non site specific in general ? Are they worthless ?
All of your 'el dorado' 'locale' pums are best guesses as far as locale goes simply because the range is so large and so divided at points there is no way to properly breed them as site locale frogs. Worse by far than the division of Darkland, Cauchero, and Esperanza. 'El dorado' site info is more specific than some, but way less specific than others.
They are obviously not financially "worthless" as people continue to buy and sell them. But, how much "credit" does this 'locale' deserve?
The frogs themselves are not to be looked down upon , the lack of proper locale management is. And in this case that falls squarely upon the guy trying to pass these off as FR...
Philsuma Wrote:So when you say "patronize the hundreds of hobbyists that produce CB pums"....does that mean only the ones not from Marcus ? Because there are quite a lot of CB frogs from his imported WC frogs.
It's totally up to the indiviual , obviously.
I'd only personally work with a very few of Marcus' pums' offspring ( 'el dorado' is absolutelty not a 'locale' I'd keep) because of zero locale info on the rest. But that's yet another topic.
I chose not to reward bad locale info and bullshite farm propaganda with $. If I did, that money would go into a hobbyist's pocket and not a guy simply in it for the cash. A guy who could at the very least provide better locale info.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Philsuma Wrote:Oh I absolutely PUSH HARD for all hobbyists especially new ones to NOT buy WC stuff ...
Again Phil, with all the pums bred here, why do you personally continue to buy WC then?
Do I really at this point in your dart experience need to start listing all the great hobbyists that are , and have been breeding pums for years? Some of which are 100% site specific. I assume you would opt for site specific, when given the choice. It seems not though. Why?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Bottom line is there is one person who could easily clear all of this up but prefers secrecy for some reason (that also seems to be a secret).
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Stuck this topic on the ol'e FaceBook page........heh
http://www.facebook.com/pages/DartDenco ... 6033279771
Let's see if any conservation-minded people see it there...
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Philsuma Wrote:Stuck this topic on the ol'e FaceBook-age........heh
http://www.facebook.com/pages/DartDenco ... 6033279771
Let's see if any conservation-minded people see it there...
There's nothing going on with any Panama pum imports that has anything to do with conservation. Pamama is the wide open wild west.
So Phil, the elephant is still in the room.
If you " absolutely PUSH HARD for all hobbyists especially new ones to NOT buy WC stuff" why don't you at the very least opt for all CB pums? Especially when some of those are 100% site specific. Preaching but not practicing?
WC best guess vs. site specific CB. The differences should be obvious to the experienced. I wonder why you still choose to buy best guess WC. Simple honest question really.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Posts: 10,391
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RichFrye Wrote:WC best guess vs. site specific CB. Simple honest question really.
ok...so before we delve into this full bore....NOW it has to be SITE SPECIFIC Captive born ?
ALL other CB frogs are trash ?
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Philsuma Wrote:RichFrye Wrote:WC best guess vs. site specific CB. Simple honest question really.
ok...so before we delve into this full bore....NOW it has to be SITE SPECIFIC Captive born ?
ALL other CB frogs are trash ?
No Phil, it's not all or nothing. I'm simply pointing out the vast difference between what you have chosen , and what's easily and affordably available for pretty much anyone. I'm also pointing out the contradiction in what you have posted (need I quote again?) and what you practice...
You use the term trash. People don't usually pay for trash.
The obvious point should be seen that you choose what some do percieve to be trash , relating to breeding management and the frogs potential or lack there of of being managed at all. Useless for managable pedigreed breeding would be an accurate desciption, for most WC pums from Panama .
So, why the choice Phil?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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