Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. mysteriosus

[Philsuma]

Michael,

I know you know this, but the problem with this entire hobby (world wide) is that very few people have any grasp on what is legal, illegal, enforceable illegal, ect. It's really a shame because knowledge and shared information would be very valuable to everyone, especially the animals. But most of the "big boys" / breeders and importers would rather not post or share information. Sad really.

For now....based on my personal communications with several UK and E.U hobbyists, I'm going to believe that frog is legal to own and trade in the U.K. If someone opines otherwise, I'd love to see it posted here.

[Michael Lawrence]

Of course, and my only thoughts on it were that Law Enforcement could just out of nowhere decide to go after them. I'd hope they dont after ignoring it so long and Im glad they have CB froglets to take over wc but until its listed by law as legal to own there are risks, I only saying to be careful.

I agree that they should be posted up and Stu should post any and all info he learns through keeping them its just a risk with our hobby, Too many people out to start shit and this is one of those frogs that could cause it. He made it clear they were cb and what is thoughts and intentions are with them.

Get this though, the snake they came looking for in my collection 3 different times due to just talk and mis ID's.......A fierce snake, this was before they were legally brought here.

Michael

[Stu&Shaz]

I totally understand what you are saying Michael - maybe they will come banging on my door because of this. Stuff, I could really do without, and yes I am naive in many ways. I have never been in trouble with the law,my worst offence so far has been a speeding ticket , on driving home from my best friends funeral, for a few seconds I thought of his kids. If the law chooses to vilify good people with good intentions then the world is a poorer place.

Regards,
Stu

[Michael Lawrence]

I wish you all the best luck with them, just wanted to make it clear you could be endangering yourself as there are some American froggers who will try and sick the law on you for no other reason than to start some shit. This is just one of those frogs that we will have to wait on the laws to accept they are here whether Peru likes it or not. A well planned Captive breeding program could in-fact deter the unneeded smuggling. I haven't a clue how pushy or even unorganized the law is out there so I could just be over cautious on it.

Good luck with them.

Michael

[JimO]

I agree and have been playing catch up myself. I was happily shipping unlabeled boxes with frogs in them until I saw a thread on the labeling requirements to comply with the Lacey Act. Since then, I've put a label on every box and have had no trouble. Education and communication are the key to informing those new to the hobby. Unfortunately, the first someone hears that they might have an illegal frog is when they get slammed on a forum when they innocently post a photo.

This isn't unique to dart frogs or even to captive animals. Being a geologist, I know there are many places where collecting fossil, rock and mineral specimens is strictly forbidden and yet people who don't know any better are opening tapping on the rocks and removing specimens.

Michael,

I know you know this, but the problem with this entire hobby (world wide) is that very few people have any grasp on what is legal, illegal, enforceable illegal, ect. It's really a shame because knowledge and shared information would be very valuable to everyone, especially the animals. But most of the "big boys" / breeders and importers would rather not post or share information. Sad really.

For now....based on my personal communications with several UK and E.U hobbyists, I'm going to believe that frog is legal to own and trade in the U.K. If someone opines otherwise, I'd love to see it posted here.

[D3monic]

I am thankful for the posting and open discussion of this nature. If it was not for the original and follow up threads many new hobbyists might not even have the slightest clue that there are even illegal specimens in captivity let alone commonly available in other countries. Its these kinds of conversations that help us grow as individuals and as a hobby.

[Philsuma]

Indeed ^

Remember....the U.K has its Mysties. WE have a BUNCH of Brazilian frogs in our hobby that are just as common now and just as questionable way back when.

We are merely scratching the surface of a much needed understanding of the history of some of these frogs.

[JimO]

I usually proof read my posts before hitting send. My last post sounded like a drunk wrote it ! I don't know what a geoogist is, but I don't want to be one. I'm a geologist (rocks); actually a hydrogeologist to be specific (groundwater). My point was that many technically illegal transactions and ownership in the dart frog community (not all, but many) are innocent and the result of simply not knowing. As D3monic says, we need to have these discussions with the goal toward education and not condemning individuals, unless they are trafficing in illegal animals on a regular basis. I doubt that many people would knowingly post photos of an illegal animal on a public forum. They would be asking for a visit from FWC.

[Stu&Shaz]

I wish you all the best luck with them, just wanted to make it clear you could be endangering yourself as there are some American froggers who will try and sick the law on you for no other reason than to start some shit. This is just one of those frogs that we will have to wait on the laws to accept they are here whether Peru likes it or not. A well planned Captive breeding program could in-fact deter the unneeded smuggling. I haven't a clue how pushy or even unorganized the law is out there so I could just be over cautious on it.

Good luck with them.

Michael

I hear you Micheal. I really hope my naivety/openness doesn't come back to bite us. Ii guess its a bit late to go back now. Agreed about the captive breeding program,coupled with a desire to raise needed funds to safeguard and,maybe improve valuable and scarce habitat. as you already know if i didn't believe everything was right and above board here then not only would I not post but also there is NO WAY I would be keeping them. The law works in strange ways though and I thank you for your thoughts and kindness, although I am getting more and more concerned as this goes on !
Time will tell I guess.

regards,
Stu

[Stu&Shaz]

I am thankful for the posting and open discussion of this nature. If it was not for the original and follow up threads many new hobbyists might not even have the slightest clue that there are even illegal specimens in captivity let alone commonly available in other countries. Its these kinds of conversations that help us grow as individuals and as a hobby.

Its so important D3,that we can trace our frogs,both from the legal /illegal aspects and also from the breeding side. i believe you guys all know we are new to this and plan to be doing this as long as we can. As beginners even doing the amount of preparation that we did, around 18month 2yrs,before frogs, which i guess was extreme to say the least,one can simply not find out everything without this type of debate, involving people whom have been doing this for some time with their combined knowledge. As a novice though the simplicity of a document that states where said frogs are bred...by whom, and carries this information back each F generation back to wild caught,would be a godsend even if the elusive collection data was not forthcoming. it would make smuggling very difficult,i think (of course novice i am i would gladly stand corrected). Conscientious beginners could easily be made aware of this in the stickies at the top of all the forums and would look for it when that wonderful day of preparation stopped and frog keeping began. Not everyone would bother looking for this of course but for those whom really are serious/passionate they would find it,and those are the folks that need to be helped, they are the next generation.

Ah Jimo,it didn't look like a drunks post to me (i don't see letters quite the same as you guys),i never even spotted the omission until you pointed it out :oops: ...funny huh !

Phil, has Brazil never exported dart frogs ? I am aware of the castis from the opening of this thread.
Stu

[Philsuma]

I don't think Brazil has ever exported frogs from commercial purposes.

Here's the Casti thread:

adelphobates-genus-f60/adelphobates-castaneoticus-do-i-dare-t370.html

[Stu&Shaz]

I don't think Brazil has ever exported frogs from commercial purposes.

Here's the Casti thread:

adelphobates-genus-f60/adelphobates-castaneoticus-do-i-dare-t370.html

Thanks mate,i had read it before i think,but was worth doing it again,much appreciated
Stu

[Philsuma]

Anyone think that Dart Frogs are still being smuggled into the U.S ?

On a "hobby" level, i.e small numbers ?

Species ? European animals ? South American stuff ?

How about some pumilio ?

[rcteem]

What mysties or any in general Phil?

[Rusty_Shackleford]

If the financial interest is great enough, no doubt there are still being frogs smuggled into the U.S. It's just a fact of life, deal with it.

[Philsuma]

Chris, this thread started out about Mysties but it's branched out into any or all smuggled / grey area frogs. I just thought I'd bump it after hearing about some sketchy frogs at that recent CA show.

Oh and Jon...rest assured I AM going to deal with it. This Forum is one of the few places that will 'Deal with it" whenever and however we can.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Are we talking about a certain flipper who recently advertised frogs of a questionable origin only to have his ad pulled?

I don't think stiffer penalties are going to be a deterrent to smuggling. Smugglers will still weigh the risks versus rewards and money always wins out. The only deterrent would be if these illegal frogs were in fact made legal and bred in large enough numbers for distribution around the hobby.
No matter how much the word gets out on the various forums about these questionable frogs and the sketchy vendor selling them, they'll just go to a show where there is plenty of money that knows nothing about the forums and the vendors reputation.

[thedude]

Anyone think that Dart Frogs are still being smuggled into the U.S ?

On a "hobby" level, i.e small numbers ?

Species ? European animals ? South American stuff ?

How about some pumilio ?

The short answer is yes. Although it isn't smuggling in the traditional sense. Bringing smuggled frogs over from Europe "legally" seems to be pretty easy...

[chuckpowell]

I find this an interesting thread unfortunately with some mis-informtion so I guess I'll speak up. Populations in the wild have low numbers because of illegal collecting and the species has never been legally exported for any reason (unlike the other species mentioned earlier in the thread). The sites where they are found are not in forests; they are found in large bromalids on the face of rock bluff. None of these bluff is large and only three localities have been located (and more are not likely to be located). Given this very limited distribution the total number of animals in the wild is likely around 1,000 animals. Further illegal collecting is a real danger to this species continuing in the wild.

However, the animals do well in captivity and produce abundant offspring (I've heard them compared to D. auratus) and are widely distributed in Europe and have been present in the US since in the late 1990's or early 2000's (I can't remember the first time I saw them). They were found again in the late 1980's and somewhere I have that paper. Because they have never been legally exported they are not legal to keep in the US no matter how many there are and how easy they are to breed. So its a legal issue (and moral if you decide to break the law) in the US - they may be easy to get but they aren't legal here. Europe is another matter and I don't know their laws to speak about them in Europe.

Best,

Chuck

[cbreon]

Hey Chuck, which frogs are you referring too?