Poll -Is keeping frogs in "glass boxes" - Conservation ?

[Michael Lawrence]

The problem with reintro is that the frogs are not just endangered due smuggling or collecting they are losing their territories to logging, farming, flooding from a large dam and other issues. How do you reintroduce frogs that have no place to go>?

[JJuchems]

=I dont think without a valid level of proof on our worth the institutions and zoos will never look at us an a possible help to anything truely considered conservation or expert associated.

Online communities don't stand a chance. I have had conversations with institutions and this is a top down initiative to start working with organized organizations with credentials. So I do see these partnerships forming. We are talking about herpetological societies with credentials/partnerships, TWI, academies of science, ect. Organizations that are legally formed.

[Michael Lawrence]

=I dont think without a valid level of proof on our worth the institutions and zoos will never look at us an a possible help to anything truely considered conservation or expert associated.

Online communities don't stand a chance. I have had conversations with institutions and this is a top down initiative to start working with organized organizations with credentials. So I do see these partnerships forming. We are talking about herpetological societies with credentials/partnerships, TWI, academies of science, ect. Organizations that are legally formed.

I figured you were leaning more to the professional end but I have to ask. What has TWI, or any herpetological society done that the hobby cant? I have to say I think Ive probably bred more herps and have more experience not to mention time clocked milking venomous snakes for both native and nonative institutions than most of TWI.
My point is if there ever is a true conservation push to not only work on reintro theory but to setup captive management of all thats here and endangered of disapearing in the wild the zoos and institutions do not stand a chance without us. We outnumber them by far, We also fund our own work and projects which they dont. I dont find it propable at all that they can do it without the bulk of the herp bobby. I tend to just smile when I hear of people with credentials or a few years of school being more fit to handle something like this.


Michael

[JJuchems]

Michael, who is the hobby?

TWI, herpetological societies, and other organizations are faces. They are a collection of people, who can be quickly and easily educated and many have professional ties. Chicago herp is work with more university partnerships. The Hepetological society I am the past president of has zookeepers, the local zoo manager (AZA facility), veterinarians, and others as members. We are talking about groups that are already educated on my of husbandry issues and are easy to distribute information, training, and already have resources. These very topics are being discussed by zoos and where discussed with our herpetological society on trip to one of the very large zoos here in the Midwest.

They are not going blanket call of volunteers, it would be easier to manage under these subgroups.

[JJuchems]

Keep in mind, TWI and herpetological societies are hobbyist driven organizations.

[Philsuma]

Based on what hoops and barriers I've seen with institutional efforts aimed at re-introduction, I'm fairly certain all Captive born hobby efforts have a 0% chance or morphing into any sort of re-population plan.

I disagree, again I know not the same as amphibians. Illinois Alligator Snapping Turtle reintroduction are coming from hobbyist. Turtles are also being purchased from Asian food markets due to limited supply to be bred for reintroduction.

Using a Reptile / commercial example is markedly different than what we are talking about here - Hobby frog efforts. Let's stay specifically to Dendrobatids here, for the purpose of this discussion.

[Philsuma]

Awareness ?

Education ?

Not actual conservation, in the strict definition of the word. But...


How about donations of money or physical effort ? Would that effectively be considered a form of conservation effort ?

[Rayne Dart]

In some small way I would like to think so. I am a teacher and my PDFs live in my classroom, so children and parents can learn about and witnesses these beauties firsthand. Maybe they will think about them maybe not but its worth a shot.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

In some small way I would like to think so. I am a teacher and my PDFs live in my classroom, so children and parents can learn about and witnesses these beauties firsthand. Maybe they will think about them maybe not but its worth a shot.

Education is the key. Education is the transfer of knowledge, without it how would anyone know what species, what habitats are in danger. The public needs to be educated, governments needs to be educated, locals/natives need to be educated.

I liken it to this. Years ago I worked at a local pet store. Occasionally we would get asked by the local elementary school to come down with some lizards and snakes and give a presentation to the kids. I did this a number of times and it always went down the same. The young kids, say 2nd grade and under, were inquisitive and very willing to touch the snakes. The older kids were scared of them? Why? Fear of snakes is a learned behavior. The young kids hadn't been taught yet tha "all snakes are bad/evil/mean/man eaters/slimy/ etc etc. The older kids all had the learned fear of snakes.
The best day for me personally doing those presentations was when I would go into the older kids classrooms, and I could get one kid to change their mind about snakes. "Hey! They aren't slimy!" "Wow! They're kinda neat!" I knew if I could change one kid that day it was a good day. Maybe it would be a life changing experience and they would grow up to be a herper, maybe they would grow up and just not kill a snake when they had the chance to. Either way, they were educated, they became aware and it changed their thinking.

[Flemish]

Awareness ?
Education ?
Not actual conservation, in the strict definition of the word. But...
How about donations of money or physical effort ? Would that effectively be considered a form of conservation effort ?

- I voted "Yes"... And I am with Michael Lawrence on his general thoughts!!

"But"... And I did with an "If" to it.
- If re- introduction to the wild, by large from hobbyists, my answer is "No"... "But" (!)

I hope it will never come to that, that we have to help nature back by re- introduction... I hope "the world" will smarten up before!!
- But if it becomes necesary, it should only be allowed Zoo´s to do so= educated with that field of work. Or to have proven themselfes worthy through commitment, education= gaining hard fact knowledge within a species...

I believe... I hope that I through my viv, still yet to come (!) can help to create awareness. Through awareness, lead to education... Physical effort= Dedication!!
I will be proud, and I hope my viv can help provide awaress... That might inspire people to money support, it could be money support to a Zoo or a organisation you trust by reputation.

It can have many levels, and spread like rings in water!!

It "provokes" me that we spent so much money and put so much efforts into knowing our universe, before we even know our own planet... At each expedition to the rain forests we still discover new plants and animals, many that might prove or provide us with knowledge in medicine... And it is all at our very noses if we care to see!!
We even learned that we could extract medicine, Nicotine even out of "poisinous" dartfrogs...

So by those head pointers I believe we participate in conservation, if letting our captive bred frogs be ambasadors for those still in the wild...
We can if we are aiming higher than just thinking about them as pets for that only sole purpose, being not just pets!!

I might be very naive, and I am much of an romanticist... But I sure will give an honest try!
- I believe we can "if we join forces", even if only being hobbyists...

One organasation says: "Help to save the frogs... One day, they might safe you"
- Sound naive at first thought... But when medicine comes to mind, it is actually very true!!
That calls for "admiration"... Honour, of something bigger that does not seem much at first glance.

[Philsuma]

I just read something where someone thought that keeping animals is glass boxes is 100% exploitation and (obviously) 0% conservation.

I strongly disagree. Look at the success of the recent 'Microcosm" events.

[Judy8]

I will be proud, and I hope my viv can help provide awaress... That might inspire people to money support, it could be money support to a Zoo or a organisation you trust by reputation.

It can have many levels, and spread like rings in water!!

It "provokes" me that we spent so much money and put so much efforts into knowing our universe, before we even know our own planet... At each expedition to the rain forests we still discover new plants and animals, many that might prove or provide us with knowledge in medicine... And it is all at our very noses if we care to see!!
We even learned that we could extract medicine, Nicotine even out of "poisinous" dartfrogs...

And it is all at our very noses if we care to see!!

[ZenMonkey]

I just read something where someone thought that keeping animals is glass boxes is 100% exploitation and (obviously) 0% conservation.

I also could not agree less, obviously depending on the animal though. Certainly I do not agree when it comes to dart frogs! One reason I was excited to get into this hobby is that I very much believe that froggers are also conservationists. Okay, maybe my auratus aren't endangered yet, but of course many species are somewhat to seriously so.

Re-introduction, while an ideal goal, isn't required for a basic definition of conservation: species that have lost or are about to lose their habitat are preserved/conserved (depending on how you look at it) and still around in captive breeding for people to enjoy. While there's very little the average individual can do about habitat loss, hobbyists can at least make sure some of the inhabitants are not lost to the planet forever. Even if they cannot be reintroduced to the wild, that is a magical thing.

[goods]

Coming from someone with a background in conservation, I do think there is a conservationist side to our and some other herp hobbies. There aren't many PDF native countries that allow WC exports any more, but look at the number of locales we can easily obtain as CB by simply posting a wanted ad on one or two websites. I'd be willing to bet I could post a want ad for histos/sylvatica and eventually find some of them if I really wanted to. Other herp hobbies that aren't necessarily as advanced as PDFs but are on their way include the obscure chameleons, some geckos, etc. Many of the African countries are closing up or greatly limiting their imports, so the thought of long-term captive management is having to occur to chameleon keepers who have in the past depended on imports to re-invigor bloodlines. My point with this is that these species may become endangered or even lost in the wild, but with a little effort on our parts, they may persist in captivity.

This leads in to the re-patriation debate. Will hobby produced animals be released back into the wild? Nope. Never. It won't happen. Our idea of genetic management is not enough to sustain a wild population.

Other side effects of the hobby that benefit conservation...Understory Enterprises. By supporting UE and all of their partners, you are protecting the native habitats of these frogs and ensuring that they will remain in the wild at least in some form for the foreseeable future (barring a major chytrid outbreak). The second side effect is educating the general public. To use an example...I live in an area that used to be largely pine flatwoods/savanna. Did you know that these pine habitats are reported to have the second highest species diversity of any habitat in the world? Do you know how many people actually care about the previous statement? I can count the number of people I know who care on my fingers and toes. The general public who doesn't get to see what those who appreciate these animals/habitats see could care less what happens to a frog species in Peru or a pitcher plant population in Louisiana. It doesn't affect their lives directly, so it simply isn't important to them. By giving presentations at local schools, etc., we can hope to bring about an interest and a sense of awareness to the general public. The only way the hobby truly succeeds in conservation is if we can use the passion and knowledge to educate the public on why these habitats are important and worthy of protection.

[scott_r]

●Inbred CB frogs are too far removed from WC to survive in the wild and could potentially do harm to WC populations with the introduction of foreign pathogens, etc.
●The simple existence of the hobby itself is anti-conservation. Increased collection of WC frogs, Increased smuggling of illegally collected frogs. These activities wouldn't take place without the market that is the hobby. Those fancy new imports everyone looks forward too are not conserving populations.
●Without buying the land to protect the habitat, NO. It is purely an enjoyment effort. Yes, the will be around after the habitat is gone, by only for enjoyment in a glass box

[Philsuma]

●Inbred CB frogs are too far removed from WC to survive in the wild and could potentially do harm to WC populations with the introduction of foreign pathogens, etc.
●The simple existence of the hobby itself is anti-conservation. Increased collection of WC frogs, Increased smuggling of illegally collected frogs. These activities wouldn't take place without the market that is the hobby. Those fancy new imports everyone looks forward too are not conserving populations.
●Without buying the land to protect the habitat, NO. It is purely an enjoyment effort. Yes, the will be around after the habitat is gone, by only for enjoyment in a glass box

#1 - Only the most newbs of newb thinks 'the hobby' can pull a Noah's Ark or repatriate frogs. We all pretty much never need to raise the 're-introduction' issue. We are all past that.

#2 - I disagree.Smuggling for the hobby effects a lot less animal populations that many people realize. Take Blue Jean pumilio for example. HEAVILY smuggled, yet many informed members agree that they are so common, that it would take a 'Panamanian Sized' exportation to even put a dent in them. And since I brought up Panama - yes, some populations of pumilio are at risk, but the same is true there as well. A stable species of 'least concern'.

Habitat Destruction is 10 times more deadly and needs to be addressed WAY sooner than smuggling.

#3 - The recent 'Glass Box' event known as 'American Frog Day' continues to be a big hit and raised a nice little bit of cash and a whole LOT of exposure for the animals. Exposure + Awareness = Donations and Conservation efforts.

[scott_r]

#2 However, there are several species such as mysties that have been over collected and smuggled to the point of almost extinction. The largest known population is less than 200 frogs.

#3 Agreed. But educating the public won't do shit. Those donations have to be used to buy land to stop deforestation.

And Chuck held the first American Frog Day in California over 20 years ago.

[Philsuma]

#2 However, there are several species such as mysties that have been over collected and smuggled to the point of almost extinction. The largest known population is less than 200 frogs.

#3 Agreed. But educating the public won't do shit. Those donations have to be used to buy land to stop deforestation.

And Chuck held the first American Frog Day in California over 20 years ago.

Smuggling will ALWAYS occur - no stopping it. Some species of animals start out small and will succumb to everything on a quicker scale. We just have to plug away and try to triage the frog species and just do the best we can with what we can. Every effort however 'small appearing' is important and should not be discounted or belittled. EVERY effort is important. We could use a pure 'cash taken in' metric for effectiveness and come away with saying the Frog Day didn't do squat because it pulled in less than $10,000.00 for example. I'm not trying to be polyana here, but again...I LIKE to think we are doing SOME good here.

I'm well aware of the History of Frog Day and who Chuck is...your point here ?

[cbreon]

I'm with Phil, some of your points have some merit, but where is this coming from?

[scott_r]

I know you do Phil. I also have to believe you know there was a different mindset toward frogs then as well. And I believe people that stick around eventually gravitate to that way of thinking. But now you see people post an intro, two months later they have 7 vivs, and a year after that they are selling everything.
ISSD and ADG were focused on education and conservation. Pokemoning is more about coolness than conservation