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fieldsmith Wrote:Hey Mike,
The list is meant to encompass all species/morphs/locales that are in collections in the U.S., not just the easily obtainable ones...that would have been much less work  There are already general dart lists (I believe Phil made one of those), so I was just focusing on frogs that are here. I thought about putting a notation next to some that are almost impossible to get (to avoid people getting their hopes up) but since rarity is not a stable condition (i.e. the new sylvaticus) I decided it wasn't necessary and would have to be revised often. The two Ranitomeya that you mentioned were imported in the mid 90's so I included them, though I don't know if they are still around. I have been given strong evidence (privately) that E. captivus is in the country...I tried to keep my personal ethical views out of making the list, just report what I am told (many of the frogs on the list may be of questionable legality). Hopefully one day I can make a list of frogs available in foreign markets (Especially the EU and Asia).
Yes, there are still offspring from frogs from the 90s around. I don't like the term ethical for this. 20 years ago, it was hard to say what was smuggled and what was legit. And harder to prove it. The histos were cheaper than "Blue Arrow Frogs" which are $30 today. There was ADG and Chuck Powell, ISSD, Sean McKeown and Helmut Zimmerman to write letters asking for advice, but there was no internet. Frognet came about a few years later. You really didn't know who had what outside of any circles you were in. The frogs were all assumed legal. Now, it is known that some frogs were never legally exported. So it is a technicality. I don't believe the frogs should be destroyed. People with certain species just keep a low profile not because of ethics, because they wish to keep a certain frog that is in a gray area. They aren't breeding them for profit. They obtained them in what was at the time legal channels. It is for the love of that species. period.
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Hi Scott,
I absolutely agree that no frog should be destroyed because of its legal status (I don't believe I've ever advocated for euthanasia). But I do think that ethical is most assuredly an acceptable term. There are some in the hobby who, once they found out their animals came from less-than-stellar origins, would no longer want them. I'm not of the opinion that having the offspring of the offspring of the offspring of smuggled animals is unethical...some people are. I truly appreciate your perspective, it sounds like you have been in the hobby quite a long time...hopefully you will continue to share your knowledge with us all!
Side Note: This list is in dire need of updating (clearly the hobby is moving quickly...so many frogs to add in just a years time), I'll try to find some free time to amend the list. As always, any suggestions/observations are appreciated.
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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Technically, the majority of the frogs that came in early to mid 90s were from less than stellar sources. Smuggled? They cleared customs. Therefore, they entered the US with the permission of the US government. I view that as Legal. Were they illegally exported from country of origin? Perhaps. However, in order to clear customs, some government offical in that country had to sign off. Was he paid? I am sure he was. Does his signature make it legal to another country? You bet. He is a government agent. His actions are the responsibility of his country, not me or anyone else in the hobby that bought on good faith with the ok of the US customs.
I am not arguing, I think we agree, I am just providing my views.
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fieldsmith Wrote:Hi Scott,
I absolutely agree that no frog should be destroyed because of its legal status (I don't believe I've ever advocated for euthanasia). But I do think that ethical is most assuredly an acceptable term. There are some in the hobby who, once they found out their animals came from less-than-stellar origins, would no longer want them. I'm not of the opinion that having the offspring of the offspring of the offspring of smuggled animals is unethical...some people are. I truly appreciate your perspective, it sounds like you have been in the hobby quite a long time...hopefully you will continue to share your knowledge with us all!
Side Note: This list is in dire need of updating (clearly the hobby is moving quickly...so many frogs to add in just a years time), I'll try to find some free time to amend the list. As always, any suggestions/observations are appreciated.
The problem with a hard and fast "list" is that a great majority of imports will ALWAYS be in question pertaining not only to their legal status, ethical status, and as important for proper breeding management ...their actual locale which has been placed upon them.
Exactly how many whoopsies and name changes have certain frogs went through?
Now, "available" also would include all the illegal stuff flying around too.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Thanks for the reply Scott, I believe our personal views are pretty much in line with each other.
Hi Rich, you mentioned one of the main reasons I quit working on this list...lack of clear data. I realized that the list could be a nice guide but would never be complete.
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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That's NO reason to give up on it though. Lists, maps and colour guides of ANY sort are always needed - however incomplete. It's better to have efforts like this, than not.
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Per email I just recd from Understory, looks like Tesoro in Colombia is introducing 2 new site specific frogs each in 2 new morphs: Yellow Black foot Terrib, Orange black foot Terrib, Green Aurotaenia, and Yellow Aurotaenia. So who is going to be first order the Terrib and lick it?
Scott - North Dallas
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