Help - 5 of my frogs have died

[c.milana]

1. DENDROBATES AURATUS x 2
2. DENDROBATES AZUREUS
3. DENDROBATES LEUCOMELAS
4. DENDROBATES TINCTORIUS x 2
5. PHYLLOBATES BICOLOR

After 2 days the azureus died. He never ate when he was with us. Our friend spoke with individual whom he bought them from and he is being replaced.

The p. bicolor was always keeping to him self and not eating like the others so we quarantined him in a mini terrarium we set up. He died 2 weeks after separating him from the group, he still did not eat after we separated him.

Another month later one of the tinctorius stopped eating and he died.

With in a month of the tinc. dying the one of the auratus' died after a stint of not eating.

Right now our last tinc.stopped eating about a week ago and is not very listless. I think he will be dead by the end of the day.


We keep the temp. and humidity right where it needs to be. All the frogs were at one time very active in eating and climbing and for some reason they take these turns for the worst and stop eating. We have watched for forms of disease and for aggression there is none that we have picked up on. We feed them once or twice daily with flightless fruit flies.

Do you have any suggestions as what to do to keep our last 2 frogs alive. The last two are VERY active right now and love eating but I fear they will soon pass as the others have. PLEASE HELP.

[RanaVenenosa]

We can try to help troubleshoot, but actual cause will prob need lab analysis of frogs or fecals. Please provide more details around # of vivs, size, age of setups, maint records, any mixing of frogs, plants from one viv to another etc... all these factors might highlight some best practices that you could adopt for future prevention and as well as areas of neglect that might have lead up in this situation.

[Philsuma]

We'll need a lot more info inorder to give you help...

Here's some basic questions to be answered....frog "help desk 101" stuff...

Basic Frog Problem Questionnaire Template:

1. What are you Temperatures -Day and Night / Highs and lows ? Are your lights too hot ?

2. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate and what type of Water are you using ? Describe you tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.

3. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it / how much ?

4. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.

hospital-injuries-disease-and-treatments-f15/help-desk-level-1-basic-frog-fixes-101-t4610.html

[Philsuma]

Offhand it seems like stress and disease are very likely causes.

Stress - from keeping the many different species together and possibly overcrowding. What size is the enclosure ?

Disease - Present in one or more of the different species and transfered to some of the other frogs. This is one reason we do not recommend a "mixed" species enclosure, especially for a newer hobbyist.

[c.milana]

Philsuma - I will gather all of that information and get that to you tomorrow. Thank you for all of your assistance.

[Philsuma]

Anything else we can do ?

If you lived within 3 hours of me....I'd offer to take a look at everything and give you better advice up close. There are many members here who would do the same.

[tclipse]

-Are they all being housed together?

-Are they all from the same source?

-Have you done fecals on any of them?

-Have temps gone above 80 degrees for any extended amount of time?

[c.milana]

All of the frogs did come from the source

The Day temp is the high at 77 degrees

The night temp is low at 74 degrees

The humidity stays at 99%

We have a 15 watt Repti Glo 5.0 exp-terra light which is timed for 12 hours on and 12 hours off

We originally used tap water which we allowed to sit for 4 days to "de-chlorinate", we have not done anything to the water since the set up, we were told that since we have a pump for the trickle waterfall that allows for circulation

We have a glass lid on the terrarium which keep the humidty in

We feed the frogs twice daily, in the morning we feed them D. Melanogaster and in the evening we feed them D. Hydei

We dust the flies in the evening once a week alternating between the multivitamin and the Calicium with VitD3

The base of the terrarium is a layer of gravel, screen mesh, layer of coconut husk fiber and then a layer of moss

There is one prayer plant (maranta) in there and Peperomia Green Scandens


I hope I supplied everyone with enough information. Let me know if i left anything out.
Thanks everyone

[schreff]

What size is the viv. You should NOT mix species of frogs. This is what mixing leads too. The frogs are most likely dying from stress. The temp is a bit on the high side as well. I wouldn't worry too much about the temp as I would mixing the frogs.

[Philsuma]

Tank parameters sound ok.

The size of the enclosure is a possible issue. For the frogs described - 7, and I'm assuming they were adults, I would not recommend anything less than a tank that is @ 40 inches length and 20 inches deep and high - roughly 70-80 gallons in a "low" or terrestrial set-up.

and then, you'd need numerous "hides", retreats and visual barriers to limit contact, prevent aggression and allow for numerous seperate niches. This is why we recommend single species vivaria and a smaller number of frogs, especially for newer hobbyists.

Did they frogs appear to "waste" away ? Feed well for a while (how long did you have them / acquire them by the way ? ) and then go "downhill" and get skinny and develop a "V" shape ? If so, that's parasites or disease - I'd be 95% certain.

When you combine a large group of frogs in a smaller enclosure and then add the different species, you up the levels of stress by 2-3 times. When frogs are stressed, the parasite load and potential for disease goes up many times as well, so you may have inadvertently created the "perfect storm".

I would separate each remaining frog into brand new, clean temporary enclosures and contact a vet and be prepared to collect fresh fecal samples.

Sorry to hear about your situation. Please post any additional questions or concerns and we'll try to continue to help you.

[jellyman]

How about a pic of the setup showing the frogs involved within? If this is for real, I'd put my money on a poorly planned out and too small in size enclosure.

[schreff]

Just reread my post. Sorry I came off sounding like a dick. Don't take it that way.

[c.milana]

It is a 29 gallon tank, we got advice from a local exotic pet store that we could have up to 8 frogs in a tank that size which is why we thought having 7 would be alright. We got all of the frogs in late august from a friend who went to a reptile exhibit in Miami and picked them up there.

The terrarium had minimal hiding/territory locations. But as of Last night we cleaned out all of the coconut substrate and moss and replaced it. We also added 3 new plants , a large piece of drift wood and a coconut husk for hiding for the last two frogs.

A few of the frogs that died did lose weight inspite of eating and remaining active and then went down hill real fast.

The two remain frogs seem to being great in the "revamped" terrarium but one is a bit smaller in the belly area than when we first got him, but again the 2 are VERY active and eating.

Does it sound like it is parasites or did we create an environment with too many frogs and too little of space?
I dont have anywhere to put the frogs in order to separate them, do you still advise separating them or do you think the stress did the others in?

[Philsuma]

It is a 29 gallon tank, we got advice from a local exotic pet store that we could have up to 8 frogs in a tank that size which is why we thought having 7 would be alright. We got all of the frogs in late august from a friend who went to a reptile exhibit in Miami and picked them up there. A "rule of thumb" for size is one adult frog per 10 gallons, so you should have had an enclosure at least double that size.

The terrarium had minimal hiding/territory locations. But as of Last night we cleaned out all of the coconut substrate and moss and replaced it. We also added 3 new plants , a large piece of drift wood and a coconut husk for hiding for the last two frogs. With a large group of frogs / more than a pair or trio....you should have cocohuts, large barriers and plants - at least 1-2 per addtional frog....so at least 5-6 hides, retreats and barriers.

A few of the frogs that died did lose weight inspite of eating and remaining active and then went down hill real fast. Almost def parasites and/or disease. Something that a fresh fecal sample to a vet would have revealed.

The two remain frogs seem to being great in the "revamped" terrarium but one is a bit smaller in the belly area than when we first got him, but again the 2 are VERY active and eating. Good...feed them heavy. Always dust their food. And strongly consider contacting a Vet.

Does it sound like it is parasites or did we create an environment with too many frogs and too little of space?
I dont have anywhere to put the frogs in order to separate them, do you still advise separating them or do you think the stress did the others in ? It was a combo of #1 - Too little space that created aggression and stress. #2 most likely different sized frogs and different species creating additional stress. Stress causes immune system weakening just like in humans and parasite loads increase.

[c.milana]

I have never seen any fecal droppings that I know of, how do I collect them?

There is a Dr. Frye in Michigan who has commented on a number of posts I've seen and he is only an hour and a half from where we live so I think I may contact the office tomorrow and find out about having the fecal droppings examined.

Should I purchase something for the time being to separate them or are they ok?

[Philsuma]

You should set up 2 quarantine tanks - one for each frog. These can be a simple as a Clean 10 gallon size aquarium or plastic tote box with a lid (not locking gasket airtight lid...just the regular snap on kind). Go to lowes or Homedepot or a plant store and buy a large size POTHOS plant (big green leaves) and rinse it off really good and take 100% of all the dirt off. You can even cut the pothos up and place it into the q-tine enclosure. The pothos will provide somewhat of a hide (big leaves) as well as hold moisture in really well.

Line the bottom of the q-tine tanks with a couple layers plain white paper towels and make sure the whole tank is very moist and the paper towels are VERY moist. When you have contacted a Vet - Dr Frye or other, they will advise you what exactly they need, in terms of fecal samples and how to package it and send it to them.

[Bill Schwinn]

I am apparently missing something? Where is the thread asking this question?

[Philsuma]

I am apparently missing something? Where is the thread asking this question?

What question would that be ?

[Bill Schwinn]

Help, 5 of my frogs died, that is the question that this thread is based on, but were is this question being asked? I cannot find it, who asked it?

[Philsuma]

hmmmmm...odd

THIS is the 2nd page.....did you look at the first page Bill ?

hospital-injuries-disease-and-treatments-f15/help-5-of-my-frogs-have-died-t5499.html