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O.pumilio color forms observed-Chris Van Der Lingen
#1

This is not meant to be an all encompassing list but just a list of 'pumilio color forms and locations with known sites documented by Chris Van Der Lingen. Looking over this book makes his recent passing sad, he had great info to share and I get the feeling that this book was the first of multiple installments. Pick up a copy if you can.

Costa Rica

Rio Costa Rica --blue jean morph
Rio Blanco--blue jean morph
Tortuguero
Guacimo
Siqurres
Bri Bri (2 different locales simply known as plot 95 and plot 208 or loc 1/loc 2)

Panama

Las Delicias (Likely one of the locations of the El Dorados)
Siububi (Likely the other location of El Dorados)
Las Tablas (Likely the spotted El Dorados)
Almirante
Yara
Vulture point
Quebrada Pastores (loc 1/loc 2)
Pitti (Loc 1/Loc 2)
Rio Branco
Quebrada Coco
Loma Estrella
Rio Uyama
Quebrada Cascajo
Man Creek
Torro Key
Ryan
Esenada
Melci
Bruno
Isla Cayo de Aqua north (loc 1/loc 2)
Isla Baki
Isla Loma Partida (loc 1/loc 2/loc 3)
Aguacate (loc 1/loc 2)
Peninsula Cauchero
Rio Gloria (loc 1/loc 2)
Guarumo

Tierra Oscuras:
Buena Esperanza
Tierra Oscura
Loma Verde
Punta Clara
Cerro Brucho
Punta Keano

Pinne de Arrroz:
Pinne de Arroz South
Pinne de Arroz North

Chiriqui Grande:
Chiriqui Grande (loc 1/loc 2)
Chiriqui Grande red

Escudos:
Isla Escudo east
Isla Escudo central
Isla Escudo west

Popa:
South
West
Central (loc 1/ loc 2)
South canalzone (loc 1/ loc 2)
Punta Laurel
East
North
North canalzone mix (loc 1 / loc 2)
Wilson Creek

Isla Bastimentos:
Macca Bite
Salt Creek
Lokatie center
Red Frog Hill
Red Frog beach
Cemetary
West
Old Bank

Isla Solarte:
East (loc 3/ loc 4/ loc 5/ loc 6)
Hospital Point (loc 1 / loc 2)

Isla Christobal:
East (loc 6)
South (loc 5)
Central (loc 3)
Uphill Creek
West (loc 1/ loc 2/ loc 4)
Botabite North

Isla Pastores:
East
Center
West

Isla Colon:
Big Creek
La Gruta
Isla Colon Bluff (loc 1/loc 2
Mimitimbi
Drago

Isla Escondido:
Danique
Nicky
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#2

Things not really touched on yet by the hobby, pertaining to books and guides.
A "morph" is not necessarily a true and lone breeding population, neither is a single point on a map.

The reason I bring this up is the fear that once more locales do start coming in they will be matched up by looking up pictures in a book or a website , as has inaccurately been done before and often for breeding purposes and management. This book and any other list of pumilio should be used as information on what pums live where and what they may look like. That's it.
Until more information on exactly which populations overlap and interbreed with other populations (should be interbred in the hobby) , and which similar looking pums should not be bred together due to absolute breeding barriers in modern times (should not be bred with similar phenotypical pums on opposite sides of barriers) , these guides are beautiful pictures of what has been found in exact (sometimes) areas inhabited by pums. They can not be used as a breeding management tool with any expectations of absolute proper breeding results.
There simply has not been even close to enough scientific study done to map out the thousands of areas pums live in the wild, and proclaim proper breeding plans for even close to the majority. Many publicly cited locales which are labeled the same population should not be interbred. And many of the different labeled populations ( many cute little kiddie names of children and the like...) are quite possible the same breeding population, not naturally geographically divided, and possibly polymorphic or at the very least with varying phenotypes to the point a pic side by side of siblings or just 'neighbors' will throw off the picture peeping declarations.
I only bring this up because I know for a fact this book, more than even most web sites, was not meant as a breeding guide. And after reading hundreds of proclamations of "this is 'x' morph " from a quick TE or Dendrobase look up, I 'd hate to see Chris' work be used for things not intended.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#3

...and, since I can't edit my last post...
The term "morph" should not be used for every place you find a pum. Whether the animal is a true breeding locale or population needs to be determined.
If you read from the book Chris notes that these are "color forms and locations" not determined breeding locales or populations, or the now less used "morph".

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#4

Good point Rich. I guess my post would more accurately be named 'pumilio color forms and locations.' From what I can tell the Popa's may be an excellent example of your point
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#5

Correct. We can't speak for Chris -especially now that's he's gone, but I would guess as well, that this book /effort is not a breeding guide, scientific journal or direct gift to the Dart Frog hobby (U.S hobby).

It is simply, IMO, a wonderful selection of photographs designed to enthral and enrich any reader.

That said...I also believe it can be used as a tool for our hobby purposes. Like any other paper, post, pic on any given forum, ect...it's a tool...an asset....a resource....that we can make use of. Do I place higher credence in the fact the Chris worked to compile this, over say, some teenager from the Mid-west with a year or so in the hobby posting pics and info ? Yeah. Hell yeah.

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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#6

And to bottom line proper terminology, these are terms I use:

A population or breeding population is just that. One population known to interbred and be separate from other breeding populations. They may or may not display similar phenotypes.

A locale is a site on a map . 'X' locale means there are frogs at that specific location. That's all it means. It is 100% imperative to have site locale info if we are to later find the extent of the breeding population.

Exactly what the extents of most known breeding populations are is vastly unknown and untested. But, you can not build a breeding plan without specific locale info.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#7

Chris' "locations" would fall exactly into locale in my terminology.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#8

RichFrye Wrote:And to bottom line proper terminology, these are terms I use.
A population or breeding population is just that. One population known to interbred and be separate from other breeding populations. They may or may not display similar phenotypes.
A locale is a site on a map . 'X' locale means there are frogs at that specific location. That's all it means. It is 100% imperative to have site locale info if we are to later find the extent of the breeding population.
Exactly what the extents of most known breeding populations are is vastly unknown and untested. But, you can not build a breeding plan with (WITHOUT , sorry ) specific locale info.
Fixed

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#9

cbreon Wrote:... From what I can tell the Popa's may be an excellent example of your point

Yes, and probably even more apropos to our hobby recently...'christobals' , from San Cristobal Island. An island I am 100% sure has multiple breeding populations, with hundreds of locales.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#10

RichFrye Wrote:And to bottom line proper terminology, these are terms I use:

A population or breeding population is just that. One population known to interbred and be separate from other breeding populations. They may or may not display similar phenotypes.

A locale is a site on a map . 'X' locale means there are frogs at that specific location. That's all it means. It is 100% imperative to have site locale info if we are to later find the extent of the breeding population.

Exactly what the extents of most known breeding populations are is vastly unknown and untested. But, you can not build a breeding plan without specific locale info.

I had Ron aka "Skylsdale", director of TWI, tell me pretty much the same thing. I agree with your terminology and I hope these conversations help everyone move the direction of these concepts. I do feel that many of these guides are helping for the hobby to better understand the complexity of this issue.

In the case of the 'Cristobal mainland," I suspect that there might have been a miscommunication and what they were supposed to be was Cristobals collected from populations from the central part of the island, it seems more plausible. Perhaps Marcus may be able to get some better answers on this subject, b/c obviously we know there is no "mainland cristobal."
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#11

cbreon Wrote:...In the case of the 'Cristobal mainland," I suspect that there might have been a miscommunication and what they were supposed to be was Cristobals collected from populations from the central part of the island, it seems more plausible. Perhaps Marcus may be able to get some better answers on this subject, b/c obviously we know there is no "mainland cristobal."

Or, they are from the mainland and are just slightly different (or exactly the same , phenotypically...)than many of the mainland 'el doradoesk' frogs with redish bodies and possible spots, and possible blueish feet. Or there may be other explainations.
But from what I understand Marcus does not have any specific site info for any 'cristobal' darts he's sold, mainland or otherwise.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#12

Thank you both for this thread and some of the clarity that has come from the posts. Does the hobby have a known list of available populations that we are sure about, i.e that we have collection data and actually know that this group of frogs does not breed with neighbouring populations ?

Thank you,
Stu
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#13

Stu&Shaz Wrote:Thankyou both for this thread and some of the clarity that has come from the posts,does the hobby have a known list of available populations that we are sure about... ie that we have collection data and actually know that this group of frogs do not breed with neighbouring populations,
thankyou
Stu

Hi Stu.
The short and probably most accurate answer would be , no, there is no map at this time or the near future.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#14

RichFrye Wrote:
Stu&Shaz Wrote:Thankyou both for this thread and some of the clarity that has come from the posts,does the hobby have a known list of available populations that we are sure about... ie that we have collection data and actually know that this group of frogs do not breed with neighbouring populations,
thankyou
Stu

Hi Stu.
The short and probably most accurate answer would be , no, there is no map at this time or the near future.
Thanks Rich,much appreciated
Stu
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