Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Oophaga pumilio colour/morph/phenotype/population
#1
One thing to consider Craig, is that there have been more than just a couple papers on Oophaga pumilio mate selection based on colour. This is something we have to factor in when becoming hobby stewards of certain lines and import date animals. Even though there is no natural barriers on a small island, why is it that the population has such marked variation - All blue, more blue, some red, almost all red, ect ? Wouldn't that entire population on Escudo be much more homogeneous ?

Some thoughts.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply
#2
I don't think its limited to just pumilio though? Ive written before about my auratus, a 5.1 group. That I have seen, the female only goes after one of the five, the one with the most pattern variation. She hunts him down in fact, even though I have yet to see him call. I've had 3 other males calling around her, and she goes after him every time even though he's silent. I know its a thread on pums, but the idea shouldn't be limited to just them...(IMO)
Derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
Reply
#3
Good observation Derek. I think you're right, but it's just that there is a ton of new pumilio keeping questions hitting the interweb lately.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply
#4
Yeah, seen they've been getting a lot of press lately...Smile
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
Reply
#5
Philsuma Wrote:One thing to consider Craig, is that there have been more than just a couple papers on Oophaga pumilio mate selection based on colour. This is something we have to factor in when becoming hobby stewards of certain lines and import date animals. Even though there is no natural barriers on a small island, why is it that the population has such marked variation - All blue, more blue, some red, almost all red, ect ? Wouldn't that entire population on Escudo be much more homogeneous ?

Some thoughts.

What, you just mention my name in the first sentence and expect me to reply? Well I guess it worked. Truth is the post I think you were referring to was cut in half when my work computer timed out and wouldn't let me continue to edit my post.

Some additional thoughts that I was going to mention but gave up on:

Suppose the population on Escudo started as one central population and spread, towards each end of the island environmental factors (diet, plants,more sunlight as oppose to less sunlight, on and on) and/or mate selection played a role in the variations that have been seen. Now imagine that we are just beginning to see the effects of those factors on the morphology, so in essence, these trends will continue and there will eventually be two different looking, interconnected populations.

Or, suppose that the escudos pop started out as two populations. A couple red pumilio washed up on one side of the island, a couple blue on the other side of the island. Over time the two populations thrived and began to overlap in the middle of the island, eventually they overlapped to the point that the majority of the population began to look like one phenotype with some outliers that people just considered to be variability. But, in all actuality what we are seeing is the merge of two different, previously separate populations towards the end of a natural change that has taken hundreds or thousands of years

Just some thoughts...
Reply
#6
That Island has been designated a marine preserve and I would think the terra as well. I've heard it referred to as a "mini Galapagos".

Just have your pumilio discussion over here. We may not have JP or Ron, but Rich and I aren't exactly chopped liver either.

:wink:
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply
#7
I get sucked in b/c I am linked to those conversations, but I like DD for a variety of reasons. Namely, I don't get any warnings for not directly asking a question in the classifieds or have to deal with locked posts b/c someone might get butthurt over some post that questions what someone else is doing...what are we 5 years old?!@$@ Ok I am done venting...both sites have their pros, I cant list any cons for DD though...
Reply
#8
I don't have time to go into it all tonight but,
Escudo was separated from the mainland 8900 years ago. All frogs on the island are descendants of frogs from the past 8900 years. No frogs are swimming across salt water . Escudo is a loooong expensive boat ride.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#9
RichFrye Wrote:I don't have time to go into it all tonight but,
Escudo was separated from the mainland 8900 years ago. All frogs on the island are descendants of frogs from the past 8900 years. No frogs are swimming across salt water . Escudo is a loooong expensive boat ride.

I would agree no frogs are swimming in saltwater, but to think that frogs might wash up on Escudo on some debris isn't unthinkable. Although, the phrase 'long expensive boat ride' leads me to believe that the distance is far enough that it is pretty much out of the question. But my point wasn't necessarily how they got there, but what happened when there was one or two populations isolated on Escudos de Varaques and what has happened since. I am not saying that I know, but more so 'food for thought'
Reply
#10
A few more facts about Escudo.
It extends no further than 3K in any direction and is over 10 miles from the closest point of mainland.
With over 8000 years to interbreed on a tiny island the most likely situation with small areas of redder or bluer frogs on Escudo would be fingers being slightly, slightly isolated by some small barier and possibly a slight chance in diet in some small areas.
But, what is most important is that well over 75% of the total darts found on Escudo are the standard representative coloration mix of about 50% red and 50% blue.
The frog which JP Lawrence found some years ago on the mainland, pretty much closest to Escudo (over ten miles away) , was very similar phenotypically to an Escudo. So, no two different colors washed up, unless those two happened to have that same occurance on the mainland.
Photo, JP Lawrence
Mainland morph
[Image: CreditJPLawrence.jpg]
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#11
RichFrye Wrote:A few more facts about Escudo.
It extends no further than 3K in any direction and is over 10 miles from the closest point of mainland.
With over 8000 years to interbreed on a tiny island the most likely situation with small areas of redder or bluer frogs on Escudo would be fingers being slightly, slightly isolated by some small barier and possibly a slight chance in diet in some small areas.
But, what is most important is that well over 75% of the total darts found on Escudo are the standard representative coloration mix of about 50% red and 50% blue.
The frog which JP Lawrence found some years ago on the mainland, pretty much closest to Escudo (over ten miles away) , was very similar phenotypically to an Escudo. So, no two different colors washed up, unless those two happened to have that same occurance on the mainland.
Photo, JP Lawrence
Mainland morph
[Image: CreditJPLawrence.jpg]

Great info! My thoughts were more or less food for thought, not factually based just plausible scenarios. Based on some google research, Escudo is 3k/sq with a max elevation of 15m so some small bariers might exist. I would think even a large open area with a lot of sand and little cover, a brackish marshy area, or a stream, would be somewhat of a barrier for such small frogs. It is interesting to see what the morphology looks like 1,000 years from now...
Reply
#12
I understand the food for thought Craig , one of which scenarios is very similar to my guess as well.
With a tiny island (3k at it's widest, not quite a square island) and 8900 years to work with, the Escudo (species of their own) have been mixed up quite well. One sandy beach one year or decade or century does not a sandy beach make the next millennium. Same with streams and marshes. Frogs get pushed , moved, and mixed quite well in that period of time.
With that, the very similar phenotype found by JP tells me that either the mainland and island happened to develop very similar phenotypes before the split or after. Percentages would say before. Thus they have probably not changed tons over the long time after the split.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#13
Yet another big reason to keep breeding locales known and separate. And one reason why some seem to see lesser than bright CBs and less than optimal breeding...


Molecular Ecology (2007) doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2007.03479.x
© 2007 The Authors
Journal compilation © 2007 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
Blackwell Publishing Ltd Non-gradual variation in colour morphs of the strawberry
poison frog Dendrobates pumilio: genetic and geographical
isolation suggest a role for selection in maintaining
polymorphism
ANDREAS RUDH,* B JÖRN ROGELL† and JACOB HÖGLUND†
*Animal Ecology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D, SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden,
†Population Biology and Conservation Biology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D,
SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden


***Cross-breeding studies between distinct colour morphs
of D. pumilio suggest that at least some combinations produce
viable offspring suggesting low developmental costs
of morph crossings. However, possible costs of cross breeding
after the egg stage may be considerable (Summers et al.
2004) as the hybrids show an intermediate and dull coloration
that probably lowers the strength of the aposematic
signal.
***





Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)