Direct Importation of Amphibians into the USA

[Sports_Doc]

I think this thread will tie into others on DD, but it was specific enough of a question not to derail other threads, some that at this point have gone beyond their usefulness IMO anyways.

1. Is there someone, or multiple people, on DD that have actually been a direct importer of amphibians/ PDF into the USA??
2. Can they please help us all, understand the process better. Cause I'm tired of hearing armchair experts tell me things online that I can not be certain are even close to the truth.
3. What are the pros/ cons, pitfalls and risks please?

My limited understanding is that there are often:
1. minimums placed upon orders
2. 'filler' animals that are not usually wanted but are required to get 'what you want'.
3. US FW import license. ~100$ to apply if I recall from when I did it in 2009
4. Export fees to pay, Vet inspections, taxes, etc.
5. Overseas shipping paid by the buyer.
6. Customs to contend with. Which requires appointments at ports of entry.
7. Many importers use an agent or broker at the port of entry. They charge a fee of course.
8. USA taxes on value of material brought in.
7. NO live arrival guarantee, so when you send over your 10K, and DOA animals arrive you are SOL.
8. QT and losses post delivery. Ive heard 10-20% is 'average', and I will say I have experienced similar #'s.
9. Importers time and risk of course.

So really, how does it work in the real world? Who has done this with say 100, 200 or 700 for that matter animals and can please outline the process for the regular keepers like me who wonder why we pay 250$ for CB frogs...or God help us, 800$ for CB frogs from some breeders on this forum ?? hock:

Best,

[Philsuma]

Excellent Thread Shawn. I'm subscribed. You summed up everything that I could think of and then some !

This info could be considered 'dangerous' as it is essential a "how-to" or "Exotic Animal Importation for dummies".

A thorough and honest response and answer would lay bare, a small business like Marcus's or Sean's, and other than one of those two...I'm not sure we'll get too far on this topic, but I'm hopeful.

[Philsuma]

Made this a sticky already (high hopes !) and expanded the subforum it's now in to include "Importation questions and answers", as I feel it's just that important of an issue.

[Bill Schwinn]

Also when you import you are liable for IATA penalties for violations like improper packing. Also if the animals sent are more than what amount the import docs say.

[RichFrye]

...keepers like me who wonder why we pay 250$ for CB frogs...or God help us, 800$ for CB frogs from some breeders on this forum ?? hock:

Best,

It's simple Shawn, and I'm glad to help out.
People pay what a frog is worth. Your pums are worth $35-$50 and my grannies are CB and are worth $800. I breed all I can, and I sell (Or trade. My choice) every single grannie I produce. I produce what most anyone who knows obligates would consider a lot of grannies. There are wait lists.
hock: My god help us hock: !!!
Support the hobby or the business. Simple.

And, when I have more time this week I will address not only Sideny Ferrell (who has yet to re-surface here) and his scams in further detail, I will also answer the first portion of your post Shawn.

[Sports_Doc]

^ thx for sticking that shit in this thread too. very helpful

[RichFrye]

Very welcome Shawn.
And , just remember Shawn, you ask questions, I'll give answers. I ask you questions, I expect the same exact respect. I'm ready.
God help us indeed... hock: .

[Philsuma]

Wonderful....

I'll have to get the shears out later tonight when I have more time.

hijacked threads....my patience is almost up.....

[markpulawski]

Rich I see the wholesale price list but for the avg hobbyist these Pums have gone from $250 - $450 a pair depending on the morph, at least a few I know have picked them up for that and were happy to do so....as always supply and demand.
As for limited understanding you are pretty dead on Shawn, obviously the more frogs you import the smaller the set fee's per frog are so large #'s keep the cost reasonable but put an undue strain on the logistics end of it and all of this is dependant on who you are importing from, Central/South America or European "connections". No matter how you cut it it is a hassle and whatever you make off of it rarely equals the time invested. Most do it to get access to that rare not normally available frog or morph which is usually the big payoff for the effort. I did it 2 times, never more.... pick up a few frogs from others no doubt but my time is much better spent scouring the forums for interesting topics like this.

[Philsuma]

I had a personal conversation with Tom Crutchfield about a year ,1.5 years ago about importing some Tincs from Suriname or an equally nebulous S.American country - you all know what I'm talking about...and he just kind of looked at me funny and after a pause, said - "You're never gonna make ANY money with frogs" and he was dead serious. Anyone that knows Tommy C., knows that if it pertains to Herps and Money...he knows exactly what's up. His info and intel is at probably the highest level here in the U.S and most likely the E.U as well.

anyhoo....to shorten this story....He picked up an albino red-foot, showed me a building full of hots and cage after cage of designer Green Iguanas...all the while trying to tell me how silly it would be to even consider frogs for any purpose.

THEN I remembered my first visit to Marcus's warehouse and Scott M.'s house and the passion. There wasn't any of the "money or nuthin'" attitude. It was refreshing and it was a true labour of love.

Hopefully this "story" adds something of value to the thread, if nothing else than, Importation is mostly caishe-driven in other Herp Hobbies. I don't think the profit margin is possible with Dart Frogs due to the mortality, other animal/species padding and aftercare.

[BluePumilio]

I have directly imported.

You hit most of the nails on the head, except the following:
4. Export fees to pay, Vet inspections, taxes, etc.
Usually just a health cert charge if the exporting country requires it. US does not require it for most herp species.

6. Customs to contend with. Which requires appointments at ports of entry.
You deal with USFWS on import inspection. While customs can be done by going to their office and filling out a few forms. Usually, it is done online. Pretty easy and quite.

7. Many importers use an agent or broker at the port of entry. They charge a fee of course.
Most do, fees range from $200+. Most Miami brokers charge about $300-$400.00 depending on the shipment.

8. USA taxes on value of material brought in.
Taxes for most countries are RARELY paid. I've never had to pay taxes on live herps. This is generally for things like textiles, etc.

7. NO live arrival guarantee, so when you send over your 10K, and DOA animals arrive you are SOL.
All my exporters have ALWAYS given live arrival guarantee.

8. QT and losses post delivery. Ive heard 10-20% is 'average', and I will say I have experienced similar #'s.
Depends on the shipment. I've had 0-80%.

9. Importers time and risk of course.
This is usually the biggest pain in the ass. Very rarely do you order things and they go as planned. Lots of planning, fixing, back and forth, and waiting. If you just want a few frogs (or a few dozen) don't import. In fact....unless there is no other way or it's YOUR BUSINESS, don't import. If you are not familiar, you will lose money most of the time on shipments.

I think the biggest concern is making sure all laws and regulations are being followed. The Lacey Act will kick you in your a** and IATA regs will cause you shipment to be taken by USFWS and the airlines to ban future shipments from your exporter.

My fav....my exporter sent some frogs to me with fern fronds in the bottles. USDA had a panic attack....and then we saw a fruit fly in there!

At min. a shipment is going to cost in fees, freight, etc. about $1200-1500.00 without the cost of the frogs. Don't forget, most exports will not deal with you, especially if you just want the rare stuff they can sell to anyone, including their current clients who will accept the common stuff as well.

I think this thread will tie into others on DD, but it was specific enough of a question not to derail other threads, some that at this point have gone beyond their usefulness IMO anyways.

1. Is there someone, or multiple people, on DD that have actually been a direct importer of amphibians/ PDF into the USA??
2. Can they please help us all, understand the process better. Cause I'm tired of hearing armchair experts tell me things online that I can not be certain are even close to the truth.
3. What are the pros/ cons, pitfalls and risks please?

My limited understanding is that there are often:
1. minimums placed upon orders
2. 'filler' animals that are not usually wanted but are required to get 'what you want'.
3. US FW import license. ~100$ to apply if I recall from when I did it in 2009
4. Export fees to pay, Vet inspections, taxes, etc.
5. Overseas shipping paid by the buyer.
6. Customs to contend with. Which requires appointments at ports of entry.
7. Many importers use an agent or broker at the port of entry. They charge a fee of course.
8. USA taxes on value of material brought in.
7. NO live arrival guarantee, so when you send over your 10K, and DOA animals arrive you are SOL.
8. QT and losses post delivery. Ive heard 10-20% is 'average', and I will say I have experienced similar #'s.
9. Importers time and risk of course.

So really, how does it work in the real world? Who has done this with say 100, 200 or 700 for that matter animals and can please outline the process for the regular keepers like me who wonder why we pay 250$ for CB frogs...or God help us, 800$ for CB frogs from some breeders on this forum ?? hock:

Best,

[BluePumilio]

Yep, especially for CITES animals. One extra and you're screwed. For some reason the exporter always wants to send you a few free gifts to make up for all the crap they said they would send and never did.

Also when you import you are liable for IATA penalties for violations like improper packing. Also if the animals sent are more than what amount the import docs say.

[Philsuma]

great info so far - stuff I did not know.

[RichFrye]

1. Is there someone, or multiple people, on DD that have actually been a direct importer of amphibians/ PDF into the USA??

I'm fairly sure there are Shawn, but I've found the Chicago unit of the U.S.F+W. to be very straight forward and helpful with any and all questions I have had for them over the past five years. And it's been a lot of contact.


2. Can they please help us all, understand the process better. Cause I'm tired of hearing armchair experts tell me things online that I can not be certain are even close to the truth.

Point out the issues you feel are incorrect or doubtful of and maybe we can help.


3. What are the pros/ cons, pitfalls and risks please?

Is this a serious question? Best case you get exactly what is promised. Worse, you get your money stolen. All kinds of stuff in between can happen. If this is not a rhetorical question, it could take weeks to type out the answers, answers.

My limited understanding is that there are often:
1. minimums placed upon orders

Easily, very very easily overcome. The solution to pollution (cash) is dilution. Spread out the costs between buddies. If you don't have enough friends who would want in on an import done right, you have not been in the hobby long enough to attempt an import which does the hobby any good.

2. 'filler' animals that are not usually wanted but are required to get 'what you want'.

The same "filler" animals which sell out eventually. The same filler frogs being sold every day on all the forums we frequent. Someone will love them.

3. US FW import license. ~100$ to apply if I recall from when I did it in 2009

Divide by 5 people, or 10 , or suck up that yearly $100 fee. It's half a Comcast monthly bill.

4. Export fees to pay, Vet inspections, taxes, etc.

Split with trusted hobbyists involved.

5. Overseas shipping paid by the buyer.

see above point

6. Customs to contend with. Which requires appointments at ports of entry.

Call F+W with the species list 48 hours in advance. Let F+W inspect. Collect frogs.

7. Many importers use an agent or broker at the port of entry. They charge a fee of course.

...or , use the $100 license from line #3.

8. USA taxes on value of material brought in.

We pay taxes in the U.S.? Mind blowing.

7. NO live arrival guarantee, so when you send over your 10K, and DOA animals arrive you are SOL.

Yup

8. QT and losses post delivery. Ive heard 10-20% is 'average', and I will say I have experienced similar #'s.

Yup again.
And probably higher than 10-20% in many cases. Which is why they should not be sold until AFTER quarantine. Which takes well over a month.

9. Importers time and risk of course.

For which he/she is paid. Or as business people it would not make sense to attempt. There is profit to be made. Simple.

[Sports_Doc]

^ wow, isn't that a biased group of answers.

Now, when have you imported Rich?

and will you be doing so again in the near future, as I am interested in investing in your animals after QT.

Having done my own bit of research I decided it was not worth my own effort to import directly.

Also, I realize some Exporters may offer Live Arrival, but from what I have heard from folks who imported PDF, that is often not the case. I think it could be arranged ahead of time, but good luck collecting on it.

[BluePumilio]

In my experience it's always in credit unless the specimens have not been paid in full, yet.

Also, I realize some Exporters may offer Live Arrival, but from what I have heard from folks who imported PDF, that is often not the case. I think it could be arranged ahead of time, but good luck collecting on it.

[RichFrye]

^ wow, isn't that a biased group of answers.

Now, when have you imported Rich?

and will you be doing so again in the near future, as I am interested in investing in your animals after QT.

Having done my own bit of research I decided it was not worth my own effort to import directly.

Also, I realize some Exporters may offer Live Arrival, but from what I have heard from folks who imported PDF, that is often not the case. I think it could be arranged ahead of time, but good luck collecting on it.

True answers they are.
Read again. I said to talk to U.S.F+W. , if, if you are actually looking for answers. As opposed to trying to make it seem as if getting pums out of Panama is a hard task.
You have not answered my one single question to you Shawn. Do you now consider us enemies?

I will be involved in absolute site locale data imports, from a country that cares, when the frog are ready (actually bred in captivity) and done properly. I won't be contacting a few old timers, lie to them about locale data included, and then screw them over by selling them frogs with no data.
They will be small controlled imports and you won't be reading about how Rich Frye screwed over investors. You'll just see pics once they are in the country.

If you know and totally can trust the people involved , many/most of these issues are moot. Trust is what lacking, because the truth is also what's lacking.

[Mantisdragon91]

I will be involved in absolute site locale data imports, from a country that cares, when the frog are ready (actually bred in captivity) and done properly. I won't be contacting a few old timers, lie to them about locale data included, and then screw them over by selling them frogs with no data.
They will be small controlled imports and you won't be reading about how Rich Frye screwed over investors. You'll just see pics once they are in the country.If you know and totally can trust the people involved , many/most of these issues are moot. Trust is what lacking, because the truth is also what's lacking.

Controlled imports, a Breeders union, a Panacur study, so many claims so few coming to fruition. I've been watching your antics for a few years now and all I see is smoke, mirrots and a heck of a lot of hot air. But please continue... I have a slow afternoon at work for once and can fully enjoy the "Frye dog and pony show" up close and personal.

[RichFrye]

All someone needs is to be invited into my basement and they will see the proof is in the puddin'. I produce lots of puddin'. And lots and lots of pics of puddin'. I don't post so many pics these days. Mainly because of fickle mixers like Roman.

Roman, you kill obligates and come in and out of the hobby. Not so much puddin' for you. Lots of BS though.

If you are in a hurry, you are in the wrong hobby .

[Mantisdragon91]

All someone needs is to be invited into my basement and they will see the proof is in the puddin'. I produce lots of puddin'. And lots and lots of pics of puddin'. I don't post so many pics these days. Mainly because of fickle mixers like Roman.

Roman, you kill obligates and come in and out of the hobby. Not so much puddin' for you. Lots of BS though.

If you are in a hurry, you are in the wrong hobby .

Which Obligates did I kill exactly? Last time I checked I have been keeping animals continuously since 1984 and if you want to compare number of species/specimens produced, I'll play that game all day long. The more you talk the more you remind me of Hank Molt, another little man with a big mouth,no job and a lot of big plans which never seemed to come to fruition.