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Hello from WI
#1
I'm Brian, I live in WI (yeah, probably knew that from my username). I am new to dart frogs, have a possible pair of azureus. I started on another board, but they are a bit, um....

Anyway, after expereinceing them and since they said this was a bad board, I figured it is probably the good group of people.

I have a good background in genetics (although my degrees are in engineering and mathematics) and look forward to learning and sharing.
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#2
Hi Brian and Welcome to Dart Den.

Feel free to look around and enjoy yourself. If you don't see an existing topic that fits your question, then by all means, start a new thread and we'll get you hooked up with some quick information and help.

Cheers,

~Phil
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
Welcome to the Den Brian.
Derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#4
BrianWI Wrote:I'm Brian, I live in WI (yeah, probably knew that from my username). I am new to dart frogs, have a possible pair of azureus. I started on another board, but they are a bit, um....

Anyway, after expereinceing them and since they said this was a bad board, I figured it is probably the good group of people.

I have a good background in genetics (although my degrees are in engineering and mathematics) and look forward to learning and sharing.

Welcome Brian

I am curious, who, or in what context did DB members say this was a bad board? I would love to know! Many of us are members on both boards and like aspects of both...

One of the ideas you were discussing on DB, hybrids, is a concept that most dart froggers feel is taboo. In other words, the consensus is that the community doesn't support that idea.

As for being better, some of the things I enjoy about Dart Den are open discussion and considerably less moderation.
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#5
They said Dart Den likes to have arguments. However, since they were arguing at the time, seemed a bit off.

Morphs or hybrids (lets leave that term loose to include new morphs or morph crosses) aren't a problem. The logic doesn't flow. But lets not debate that in this thread, please. If you want to hear my reasons why, I'd be happy to share in a dedicated post.

I hope here a good mix of old ideas and new can lead to real debates; other boards seem to just have the belief "I know better than you" and will form a mob "clique" attack if you even try to debate them.
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#6
Yeah, I'm not trying to debate hybrids in this thread. There are plenty of threads about it if you do a search and that explains where most are coming from and the articles that support their thinking.

I think you will find this board has a lot of helpful info and some experienced froggers who are generally helpful and informative,
Welcome
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#7
Welcome Brian.
What you are going to find is that for every 1000 'scientific studies' revolving around genetics in our hobby there is one scientific study revolving around genetics in our hobby. I'm being generous. It's only one reason people get jumped on when they say they are "experimenting" ...
'Experiments' (especially aesthetic based) by non-scientists (and people who have zero understanding of what a real scientific experiment entails) which get blended into out hobby are a great danger. One that happens all the time.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#8
I have found a few on the other board as well, albeit most just PM when they want to tell you something (probably because they don't want to debate the nasty ones).

Honestly, I have read the reasons, have seen the same thing in other animal hobbies, and most are just lacking in logic. And when you try to make it a false issue, you tend to drive it underground where those who WILL abuse it to make a buck will be able to without worry. Even worse, many of the ones doing it are the ones yelling against it the loudest. In another poultry breed group, there was a huge seller talking about the morphs he was getting randomly in his flock. Everyone was so excited. And he was telling everyone how pure his flock was, etc., etc. When I happened to mention that a couple of the traits were dominant and could not have hidden in the imported birds, first he argued how dumb I was, then later deleted every post about it so no one would know the truth. I was attacked relentlessly to cover up the facts I had exposed. And people fell for it. The importer must be the experienced and smart one afterall, right? He said so. LOL. In the end, he made tons of money off the gullible and hurt the breed (which are terrible to this day).
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#9
Quite simpler in these cases.
Someone wants to create something 'new' and 'prettier', for whatever reason/s. They have no grasp of positive or negative out-crossing factors. Just new and pretty. Not science based.
Plenty of good discussions around the net on reasons not to cross in our hobby.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#10
I suppose we are going to debate this a bit....

Because something can be done wrong is not a reason to avoid doing it right. The inexperienced will do these things whether or not you (in general, meaning those against it) believe they should. I'd rather help do it right.

In most arguments I hear about outcrossing depression, it tends to be some issue that would affect wild populations. Like loss of ability to care for eggs because we pull them. So what? We are not conserving them, we are keeping pets. Also, breeding for diversity AND creating new morphs or hybrids can coexist fine. In fact, I have worked with poultry where if a composite species or closely related one had not existed, the target species would have disappeared.

Then there is the argument for pure gentic study where crosses are an invaluable tool.

Everything done in the open works out better.
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#11
BrianWI Wrote:I suppose we are going to debate this a bit....

Because something can be done wrong is not a reason to avoid doing it right. The inexperienced will do these things whether or not you (in general, meaning those against it) believe they should. I'd rather help do it right.

In most arguments I hear about outcrossing depression, it tends to be some issue that would affect wild populations. Like loss of ability to care for eggs because we pull them. So what? We are not conserving them, we are keeping pets. Also, breeding for diversity AND creating new morphs or hybrids can coexist fine. In fact, I have worked with poultry where if a composite species or closely related one had not existed, the target species would have disappeared.

Then there is the argument for pure gentic study where crosses are an invaluable tool.

Everything done in the open works out better.

Only a little bit of a debate. Ever heard of an obligate eggfeeder? Or hobbyist who don't pull eggs?
There are studies which show not only outcrossing issues with different dart frog species , but also negative issues with crossing same species from different locales ...in CB darts. I've posted such studies here recently.
Again, there just are not enough people who can and will do it 'right' so experiments are done in a scientific , responsible manner.

Rich


PS, going any more in depth most likely warrants another thread.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#12
Rich,

I do think we should do another thread. Maybe link the links to articles, etc.

As far as enough people to do this type of breeding correctly, would they even be able to do ANY breeding correctly. Breeding a sibling pair to generate a color could be said to equal breeding a sibling pair because its all you have or want to make a quick $$$.
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#13
Hi Brian Welcome aboard.

-Scott
Scott - North Dallas
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