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Breeding for color
#1
I thought I would start a thread on breeding for color. I know this type of thing is looked down upon in the dart frog community, but I would have to say I don't agree that is has to be bad. Hopefully we can stick to the breeding for color as a topic even though it will be hard.

Having a background in mathematics and genetics, I know breeding for color can be done and done well. There are articles that exist against this. Anyone want to link a few?
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#2
Hi Brian...I'm looking for a thread either titled "Line breeding" or similar for ya...it had a real good head start on this topic. I bumped another thread for ya as well.

I'll post a better response later...
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
What's wrong with the colors and beauty of the frogs nature gave us?

Why don't you just save the time and trouble and inject some dye into the frogs, start with neon pink and chartruse green, so we'll all know which frogs are yours.
Jon
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#4
Well...there IS conjecture as to Sean S's 'Sky Blue" Azureus. Keeping them separate for their blue-ness. Maybe that's more in mind what Brian is thinking of.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#5
I understand "odd color morphs" pop up from time to time as normal part of genetic variance. But if everyone tried to breed for different facets of color in say just tinctorious alone, how many different color variations would their possibly be and how funnel necked would the genetic stock of the captive population be?
My point is there are already species/morphs lost to the hobby. Would mass produced, line bred frogs for specific color traits lead to the loss of natural species/morphs from the hobby
Jon
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#6
Observation: I have read various posts or spoke w folks who "hold" back frogs from breeding projects. Surely the "hold" back implies line breeding (assuming its not random)? That is how I interpret the behavior. Folks are hand picking the pretty specimens. I doubt people do this just to keep the animals as pets w no intention to breed. Trying to make this conversation intelligent and honest. Not suggesting this is malicious or $$$ motivated, but certainly is a "selfish" thing as beauty stirs the senses - a pleasure if you will; for the individual... and not for the genetic viability of the frog.
Scott - North Dallas
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#7
RanaVenenosa Wrote:Observation: I have read various posts or spoke w folks who "hold" back frogs from breeding projects. Surely the "hold" back implies line breeding (assuming its not random)? That is how I interpret the behavior. Folks are hand picking the pretty specimens. I doubt people do this just to keep the animals as pets w no intention to breed. Trying to make this conversation intelligent and honest. Not suggesting this is malicious or $$$ motivated, but certainly is a "selfish" thing as beauty stirs the senses - a pleasure if you will; for the individual... and not for the genetic viability of the frog.

It could if you were holding back for a certain color trait. However if you are raising up a group of froglet to select the best for future breeding stock you would take in more than just a certain color into consideration. You would probably take the strongest, healthiest animals instead of whichever one just for color.
Jon
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#8
I disagree with the "Holdback" term. While FAR from even "hobby defined" ,like a ton of other things...I personally take it to be more of a marketing term as I see it 90%, applied to enhance the sale of an animal. People that I hear saying the word "holdback" are attempting to qualify the slightly higher price by appealing to the prospective buyer's interest in a perceived a higher quality animal that the buyer was "reluctant" to part with....unitl now, obviously.heh
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#9
I see that as part of the basic reasoning behind a lot of this argument: perception.

There is already some selection. Why is a animal selected for larger size or durability in captivity different than color. What would nature have done to that frog? Did he adapt to our feeding abilities in captivity to be "healthier"? Is this preserving the wild type?

I contend the basic idea that we are conserving some population (or could even hope to) is not really sound.

Rusty, if you want to fight, fight me on the other board. I think here we can have a good discussion on the topic here instead.
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#10
The ideal situation would be blind pairings...but I don't believe this is feasible in captivity. I concede that choosing frogs based on perceived "fitness" is a type of artificial selection, but I believe the motives are different. Selection for color is purely selfish (i.e. to please the keeper) while selecting (even unconsciously) the most fit frogs is, in essence, for the good of the frog (and future offspring). Brian, I respect you for trying for an open discussion of the topic and for refusing to quit the discusssion...I may not agree with all of your positions, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to learn from the discussion.
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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#11
Field Smith,

It is always good to think about new perspectives and debate them. Often times new insight is valuable to your new opinion or an old one.

Is "random" ideal? Even the frogs don't do it randomly in many cases. Random matings can cause artificial selections. Maybe you just selected for a trait that would have caused the frog to parish in the wild. Maybe you made it a healthier frog in captivity (which I say is GOOD). You may be undoing what nature was in the process of doing. As for color, do we not know that a frog with a pretty bright blue would not have an advantage in the wild? After all, the colors did evolve somehow.

Why is the frog in the wild, as is, better than the frog in captivity?
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#12
BrianWI Wrote:It is always good to think about new perspectives and debate them. Often times new insight is valuable to your new opinion or an old one.
Totally agree with this.
I see merit in your points. While selection for color may be advantageous in the wild (i.e. more visible aposematic coloration), it serves no purpose in captivity. Do I know for a fact that genes that maintain or improve fitness are not directly linked to genes that control color-expression?...No, but I do not know the converse to be true either.
Honestly, I don't know how to answer the final question. To me, knowing that a frog in my collection is as close to its wild counterpart as possible is a point of pride. Maybe that is selfish though. Note that I am a horrible debater because I try to see both sides of everything...all the time...its frustrating yet enlightening :?
Many of the questions you pose have crossed my mind in the past.
Side Note: keep in mind that many in the hobby are proud of the fact that we are "different" from other hobbies because we focus on purity of species/morphs/locales...I can't prove that this is the "right" position, but I do see the merit in the belief.
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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#13
"better" is also "Beauty"...both in the eye of the beholder.

Like field said...we are striving for healthy, durable first.

"Frogs in glass boxes"....there is only so much we can do. Only so much we can effect / change / protect, ect.

One thing that I am CERTAIN of is....the more suspect and debatable animals (crosses, hybrids, mutations, mutts, best guesses) there are perceived....the MORE imports and WC animals will come in. I think that's the main reason we "need to be careful" with what we do.

Some thoughts....
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#14
I don't see the link between "non pure" animals making more WC animals come in. I see that argument being more monetary than real need (shortcutting), and if it is linked, I can see it being due to "perception".
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#15
Because many keepers focus on the "purity" of their animals. If outcrossed animals enter the hobby (especially under the guise of true morphs), then it is nearly impossible to prove the purity of offspring. New WC's remedy this lack of confidence in the purity of captive animals. By avoiding the aforementioned scenario, we avoid "needing" new imports (for now at least).
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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#16
BrianWI Wrote:I don't see the link between "non pure" animals making more WC animals come in.

You're just gonna hafta spend 5-6 years in the hobby closely looking at that issue, if you don't accept it.....trust me.....it's real.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#17
I have seen the same issue in other hobbies. I am betting it is similar. It is usually a perception problem.

fieldsmith,

By outcrossed, I assume you mean the breeding of two "wild" morphs, correct?
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#18
Yes, though intergrade would be a better term, not sure why I said outcrossed...guess its bedtime
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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#19
BrianWI Wrote:I don't see the link between "non pure" animals making more WC animals come in. I see that argument being more monetary than real need (shortcutting), and if it is linked, I can see it being due to "perception".


This has been explained several times to you including having several paper cited to you by Ed K.

So BrianWI does breeding for color include hybridization?

For everyone else here's a little back ground info. The real fun starts on page 10 or 11, but the whole thread is an interesting read.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science...overy.html

Here's a quote from BrianWI in that thread "This is one reason I generally approve of creating new hybrids or morphs in captive breeding efforts. Desire for new morphs may take pressure of looking for new WC specimens. "
Jon
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#20
BrianWI, since your in Wisconsin and Frog Day is in Chicago you should absolutely make a trip and be there. In fact last I hear there was still a speaker slot open. Why don't you come down and do a whole presentation on line breeding and hybridization of Dart Frogs!!!! We'd all love to meet you!!!
Jon
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