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Starting a frog business with no introduction
#1
I've noticed a number of frog related businesses start up lately without any introduction from the vendor. Maybe I missed the intro, but I also feel like when I go to the contacts page the business owner's name should be there. If not, somehwere on your site you need your name. If there is no name to be found and no name to associate to the business, I would be VERY reluctant to do business with you. The site might be really nice with quality products at good prices, but no name no money from me. Furthermore, if you haven't been around for a little or shared some knowledge or posted, how could I possibly formulate an opinion unless others have offered feedback?
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#2
totally agree. I've had to ask for locations, let alone names lately.

I would never even consider buying frogs or even supplies for that matter, from a business without proper info / location ect.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
I've noticed new websites around advertising frogs, with no name to associate with it. I personally have a crappy little freebie web page with frogs for sale and my full name is right on the front page. It seems to go hand in hand with current buzz about credibility.
Jon
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#4
I think this approach to dart frog related web-businesses also carries over to people who have 20-30 posts in the last month or two and now have a bunch of frogs to sell. These might be great people but another group I would be reluctant to by frogs from without any references, or background, much less no location or name in their profile?!? Yet I see these people sell their frogs and I cant help but wonder who is buying them.
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#5
Rusty_Shackleford Wrote:I've noticed new websites around advertising frogs, with no name to associate with it. I personally have a crappy little freebie web page with frogs for sale and my full name is right on the front page. It seems to go hand in hand with current buzz about credibility.

Jon, even if I didn't find it on your website and then asked you and you told me your username, at least you are familiar. I would probably ask around to see if anyone else I knew dealt with you. But if you don't have a name on your site and I ask and its someone I never heard of with 30 posts in two months with no feedback...or even worse the answers you get are combative or less than open and helpful, why would anyone buy from these types of people? For me credibility and reputation is everything when I am about to give some several hundred dollars, but it would appear that not everyone cares that much...
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#6
cbreon Wrote:... I cant help but wonder who is buying them.

When price is the bottom line, there are always plenty of people to buy.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#7
cbreon Wrote:
Rusty_Shackleford Wrote:I've noticed new websites around advertising frogs, with no name to associate with it. I personally have a crappy little freebie web page with frogs for sale and my full name is right on the front page. It seems to go hand in hand with current buzz about credibility.

Jon, even if I didn't find it on your website and then asked you and you told me your username, at least you are familiar. I would probably ask around to see if anyone else I knew dealt with you. But if you don't have a name on your site and I ask and its someone I never heard of with 30 posts in two months with no feedback...or even worse the answers you get are combative or less than open and helpful, why would anyone buy from these types of people? For me credibility and reputation is everything when I am about to give some several hundred dollars, but it would appear that not everyone cares that much...

See I don't get that. Me personally, if I'm making a big purchase, whether it be frogs, or a flat screen tv, I research the hell out of it. I want to know exactly what I'm getting, when it will it get there, where did it come from, how much does it cost and who am I getting it from. I guess as P.T. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. I can't help that someone would want to spend good money on frogs from an unknown entity. All I can do is be transparent and honest and as helpful as I can be. And not do business with other people that aren't.
I do see Rich's point too. Maybe some people are just looking for cheap frogs, and in that case you get what you pay for. \\\
Jon
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#8
For a majority of froggers, money trumps all. We see it year after year at the local shows. We offer nice well started juveniles, talk to new froggers at length, walk them thru set-up, husbandry, feeding, and supplementation and they come back 2 hours later with the frogs they bought from vendor X that are half the size and skinny because they were $5 less. It's frustrating, but it's reality.
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Jeremy
www.shop.JL-Exotics.com
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#9
JL-Exotics Wrote:For a majority of froggers, money trumps all. We see it year after year at the local shows. We offer nice well started juveniles, talk to new froggers at length, walk them thru set-up, husbandry, feeding, and supplementation and they come back 2 hours later with the frogs they bought from vendor X that are half the size and skinny because they were $5 less. It's frustrating, but it's reality.

To a certain extent I was buying frogs from bad sources when I was 22-23, I was new and didn't know any better, and although Frognet was around, it was not quite the resource that DD/DB have become. After a couple months and a couple mistakes I was able to make some better connections and get in touch with some people interested in helping me succeed as opposed to just making a quick buck. So for the newbs its a mistake that is easier to make, but for the frogger with a year or two...or more under their belt it is pretty frustrating to see.

As someone recently said, supporting people like this is part of the problem.
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#10
Everyone should be proud to announce who they got their frogs from and we are just nowhere near there yet, unfortunately.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#11
One thing I have taken note of recently is the occurrence of established 'hobby names' buying from whomever has the frog. These are obviously GOTTA , GOTTA, GOTTA HAVE frogs which no self respecting frogger could possibly pass up. Must haves which will never ever be offered to our hobby again. These are frogs which could be offered by the Devil himself and snapped up , due to there crazy rareness...In other words , there are guys in our hobby who pretend to be all about The Hobby, when in fact they are only about expanding their collections by any means , from anybody. And, actually in most cases they are frogs which are already in the hobby, and usually not really all that GOTTA HAVE 'EM rare...
They reward bad behavior. So, expect more bad behavior.

Once again;


It boils down to this:

There is a fairly 'visible' line right in the middle of all the dart frogs being sold or offered for trade.

On one side are the hobbyists, on the other the business people.

If you live on the hobby side , you can venture into the business side and play around, but you live in Hobbyland.

If you live in Businesville you can also venture once and awhile into Hobbyland, but you live in the business end of darts.

If you are 100% fine with "it's just a job", from a flipper or a jobber or someone who just wants to make as many sales to whomever possible, buy from a business man or woman.

If you care about the frogs, their lineage, their health and well being, and care about where the hobby is going and where it should be, don't support business people, support the hobby.


Rich Frye
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#12
I'll offer a counter part...

The business type people may make the hobby better. They innovate making new foods, new supplements. They are investing in the frogs through their business. They may be making bulk purchases, moving prices down and making frogs more affordable. They sponsor stuff. The sell you supplies. They are a valuable part of the hobby.

I am not a dart frog business. I have bought many supplies from them. I bought my frogs from a great hobbyist. I'd buy more frogs from a great business.

That being said, if you want more from the business people, ask for more. Honestly, an honest or dishonest business is going to be no different than a honest or dishonest hobbyist.
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#13
I love this thread. Coming from the fish hobby for 20+ years, to me, it's crucial information where I get any kid of animal from. Fish are a completely different situation with what most on this forum are coming from. 99% of fish come from fish farms that do nothing but breed fish pretty much to death but, reputable fish stores, though they're getting the fish from these farms, will monitor fish for a few days to check for potential problems. These are really the only places I was willing to buy my fish from. There were times where I'd make the occasional purchase from a place I wouldn't normally buy from if there was a good deal on more expensive fish or if there was an expensivish fish that looked sick and not well taken care of I'd buy and bring home to take care of until it was well enough and I'd find a good, new home for it.

Dart frogs aren't nearly as popular as a guppy and the frogs are a much more specialized animal to take care of. For this reason, I was happy to get a recommendation, on this forum, on where I could purchase my frogs from locally (with another giving me positive feedback) and I'm very happy with the result. I was a bit nervous about things, especially the production of the fruit flies but the couple I bought them from talked to me for well over an hour to get my jitters out of me. They were also awesome enough to give me their phone number for any serious problems I might of run into.
Jon
1.0.6 D. Leucomelas
0.0.2 D. Azureus
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#14
BrianWI Wrote:I'll offer a counter part...

The business type people may make the hobby better. They innovate making new foods, new supplements. They are investing in the frogs through their business. They may be making bulk purchases, moving prices down and making frogs more affordable. They sponsor stuff. The sell you supplies. They are a valuable part of the hobby.
...

That being said, if you want more from the business people, ask for more. Honestly, an honest or dishonest business is going to be no different than a honest or dishonest hobbyist.


Brian,
Every single thing you mention can be done, and is in fact done more often than not by hobbyist first, most often and better. And there are plenty of guys who make money from darts and dart related products. But I would not call them business people (as explained in detail in my previous post...). They are awesome hobbyists who get a ton done in the hobby and just happen to need to pay some bills also.
The business people will sell anything to anybody any time. Period. It is always about the bottom line.
I guess it is just yet another unique thing about our dart hobby which you just need to experience. Time actually in the hobby helps. As it does with all the other great things the hobbyist do for and with our darts all the time.
All things equal, support hobbyists. No need at all to attempt to over think it.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#15
and another point of difference.....dry goods vs livestock.

Anyone selling supplies and dry goods...meh...whatever....have at it Hoss

but

If you are selling live animals and are strip-mining the hobby, without a care and jobbin', bobbin' and flippin' all the way to the bank....this particular forum WILL out you. You will not have friends here.

Animals are too precious to be dealt with like commodities or 'pieces'.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#16
BrianWI Wrote:I'll offer a counter part...

The business type people may make the hobby better. They innovate making new foods, new supplements. They are investing in the frogs through their business. They may be making bulk purchases, moving prices down and making frogs more affordable. They sponsor stuff. The sell you supplies. They are a valuable part of the hobby.

I am not a dart frog business. I have bought many supplies from them. I bought my frogs from a great hobbyist. I'd buy more frogs from a great business.

That being said, if you want more from the business people, ask for more. Honestly, an honest or dishonest business is going to be no different than a honest or dishonest hobbyist.


I see you're point Brian and there is some validity to it. However a hobbyist sells frog because they love frogs and they want to spread that love around by having other people keep frogs. A business sells frogs to make money, even if they don't make much or anything on a frog, there is always the associated products that go with frogs ie, FF cups, substrate, vivs, driftwood etc etc. For a business it's all about profit, not the love of frogs. So if a business could cut corners and for example sell a less than premium ff media and make money, it most certainly will. It's all about profit margin. I also think a good hobbyist is able to provide you with more knowledge and insight than a business ever could. That is something you can't put a price on. I will gladly pay $$ more per frog to get them from a hobbyist I trust rather than some business with a website.
I really believe that most if not all of the innovations in this hobby have come from hobbyists, not businesses

Edit: Just saw your post Phil, I agree, supplies are supplies (dritwood, ff cups etc.) doesn't matter where you get them.
Jon
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#17
RichFrye Wrote:Brian,
Every single thing you mention can be done, and is in fact done more often than not by hobbyist first, most often and better. And there are plenty of guys who make money from darts and dart related products. But I would not call them business people (as explained in detail in my previous post...). They are awesome hobbyists who get a ton done in the hobby and just happen to need to pay some bills also....

At what point does a hobbiest become a business?
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Jeremy
www.shop.JL-Exotics.com
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#18
JL-Exotics Wrote:
RichFrye Wrote:Brian,
Every single thing you mention can be done, and is in fact done more often than not by hobbyist first, most often and better. And there are plenty of guys who make money from darts and dart related products. But I would not call them business people (as explained in detail in my previous post...). They are awesome hobbyists who get a ton done in the hobby and just happen to need to pay some bills also....

At what point does a hobbiest become a business?

It boils down to this:

There is a fairly 'visible' line right in the middle of all the dart frogs being sold or offered for trade.

On one side are the hobbyists, on the other the business people.

If you live on the hobby side , you can venture into the business side and play around, but you live in Hobbyland.

If you live in Businesville you can also venture once and awhile into Hobbyland, but you live in the business end of darts.

If you are 100% fine with "it's just a job", from a flipper or a jobber or someone who just wants to make as many sales to whomever possible, buy from a business man or woman.

If you care about the frogs, their lineage, their health and well being, and care about where the hobby is going and where it should be, don't support business people, support the hobby.


There's really no line of death, just as there are no bar codes on our frogs. It's just usually fairly easy to tell. Start by the guys who only post "FOR SALE!!!" and go from there.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#19
There are a decent number of businesses and importers that I would not hesitate to patronize and refer to others...always have and will continue to do so.

The word 'business' is not a dirty word. It must be taken into the totality of circumstance. What are you giving back ? How clean is your building? Do you have a decent quarantine room / set up ? Do you only post 'for sale ads' and nothing else? Can people visit your store / business or do you not allow that / hide that ? Ect, ect.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#20
I don't think that all businesses are evil. There are several I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone. It all comes down to buyer beware. How long have they been around? Any feedback on them? Anyone else purchase from them? be diligent, whether it's a breeder or business. Just be way about a "business" that spring up overnight and promises the world. If it's sounds too good to be true...it probably is.
Jon
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