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Oophaga pumilio behaviour - wrestling...
#1
Today Shaz and i watched a 2 pums.The supposed male is actually unknown the supposed female is a male i presume as "he" lets out a short little "chrup".

when the two frogs were in close proximity there was a bit of wrestling male on top and short calls.....female underneath,she repeatedly back leg kicked at him even when he was out of striking distance.

Easy questions :lol: what did we see what did it mean,could this be behaviour attributed to a pr?

I have only my intellect to base a conclusion,my stockmans eyes. you guys have kept these ...in some cases for years,you have watched hard and long,can any give me some insights please.

regards and thanks.
Stu
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#2
2 males....
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#3
Philsuma Wrote:2 males....

Your pretty sure Phil, even with no calls from one frog,enlighten me mate...why so sure?
thankyou
Stu
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#4
Just a guess, mate....like anything in this hobby. Very hard to say with anything close to even 90%.

Male pumilio absolutely wrestle other males. This is as close to 100% as possible.

Females will sometimes wrestle other females but not anywhere near the high percentage that male-on-male wrestling is.

Male-on-female wrestling ? I've heard it happens from a couple people, but I would put it at much more rare than the two scenarios above.

If one has called (faintly, but called) - then you can pretty much be sure you have at least one male and since it is reacting so strongly - wrestling.....the other pumilio is a submissive, non calling male.

just a hunch. Please apply 8-12 more hours of constant observation and much more will be revealed to you. Hehe
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#5
Philsuma Wrote:Just a guess, mate....like anything in this hobby. Very hard to say with anything close to even 90%.

Male pumilio absolutely wrestle other males. This is as close to 100% as possible.

Females will sometimes wrestle other females but not anywhere near the high percentage that male-on-male wrestling is.

Male-on-female wrestling ? I've heard it happens from a couple people, but I would put it at much more rare than the two scenarios above.

If one has called (faintly, but called) - then you can pretty much be sure you have at least one male and since it is reacting so strongly - wrestling.....the other pumilio is a submissive, non calling male.

just a hunch. Please apply 8-12 more hours of constant observation and much more will be revealed to you. Hehe
hey mate ya good?
Not always possible to put in the hours of observation ,before buying,ie while still at the shop,so to our credit we went back,2 1/2 hrs trips 3 times,4 hrs or so observation and each time saw a repeat of the same behaviour,so have concluded a nice pr of males. I guess i should have titled this thread: "How does a novice pum keeper read the signs of behaviour that will ellucidate males from females in the morphs of pumillio occurring on RFB or the cematary " ,,kinda long winded init :lol: . So I'm guessing that its seriously difficult to sex some pums that don't show sexual dimorphism,which from pondering basti photos,seem slight at best,if no one is doing any calling,that is.


C'mon guys give a beginner a bit more,info you must watch your frogs,you must have some ideas on how to sex the above morphs,or is it simply buy lots and gradually whittle them down,when they start breeding,which unfortunately i can't really afford to do,
basically a plea from the ignorant...ie me to the experianced keepers,
take care ya'll
Stu
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#6
I have a few pairs of pumilio and from my experience (no expert here) wrestling usually is a set of two males. BUT I have had proven pairs "wrestle" when breeding.

What tends to work for me when you have a pum with no physical attributes to sex by (typically just the darkening of the under throat) such as my esperanzas and popas, is first try keeping each in their own keeper and playing calls. This typically gets some sort of response for me. If nothing put both in a 10 gallon, and if you have a def female add her to the mix. Once one calls take that one out. Now you have either a submissive male that should call with no competition or a female. This method can take some time as they may not call right away. Some things to look for is also how they act when the female is added, or where they go to in the ten gallon, high corners, following another pum, etc.

hope this helps a little. It can be frustrating but thats why I love these little guys! So much personality!

Vinny
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#7
I typically see females beat up males during feeding time, especially if froglets are in the tanks. I've never seen a male jump on a female though so you most likely have 2 males. Try separating and see if they both call.
Adam Hess
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#8
Vinnner Wrote:I have a few pairs of pumilio and from my experience (no expert here) wrestling usually is a set of two males. BUT I have had proven pairs "wrestle" when breeding.

What tends to work for me when you have a pum with no physical attributes to sex by (typically just the darkening of the under throat) such as my esperanzas and popas, is first try keeping each in their own keeper and playing calls. This typically gets some sort of response for me. If nothing put both in a 10 gallon, and if you have a def female add her to the mix. Once one calls take that one out. Now you have either a submissive male that should call with no competition or a female. This method can take some time as they may not call right away. Some things to look for is also how they act when the female is added, or where they go to in the ten gallon, high corners, following another pum, etc.

hope this helps a little. It can be frustrating but thats why I love these little guys! So much personality!

Vinny
Hey Vinny yeah mate it really does help ,this is the kind of stuff I'm after...exactly this...thankyou!!! Vinny could you please elucidat a few points,you refer to high corners,these are possibly frequented by whom? I'll guess males ,but might be completely wrong...also following female following male ...or the other way around?


Also do pum males have actual differring calls for communicating different things? ie Male attacting a female or stating this is my patch...one call, male meeting another male the very short clicks or churps,i am already aware of
Regards
Stu
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#9
thedude Wrote:I typically see females beat up males during feeding time, especially if froglets are in the tanks. I've never seen a male jump on a female though so you most likely have 2 males. Try separating and see if they both call.


Good stuff Adam thankyou,anything..... other details you could add literally anything for a novice buying his first pums,to help at the shop
Stu
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#10
Pumilio really aren't difficult, you will do fine. Remember though, just because it looks male or female, means nothing. These guys are basically impossible to sex based on looks. Throw them together and watch their behavior.
Adam Hess
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#11
Ive been lucky enough to have a good amount of alpha females in various groups.... :?

when it is feeding time, she will always fly towards the male and pin him down and kick him away and chase him around the viv....also when they call I have noticed this type of beahvior.

it is one of my great reason to have set up the 40 gal froglet tanks as I had noticed these alpha fems exhibit this same type of beahivor towards her offspring, and I just couldnt see how that'd be beneficial to a growing froglet...
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#12
thedude Wrote:Pumilio really aren't difficult, you will do fine. Remember though, just because it looks male or female, means nothing. These guys are basically impossible to sex based on looks. Throw them together and watch their behavior.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Adam,we've waited a good while now,i do think we are ready,ha and i know they won't go hungry. the impossible to to sex by looks is the one bit I am really sure on :lol: :lol: The behaviour is exactly what I'm questing for Adam,once we''ve kept them a while I'll know what I'm looking at because we both really look at our stock,but when one hasn't kept a species,one can't ascertain what's going on,thats where you guys come in 8) Its all those little nuances that one sees as the frogs interact,that i want to be able to read.
Stu
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#13
sidney ferrell Wrote:Ive been lucky enough to have a good amount of alpha females in various groups.... :?

when it is feeding time, she will always fly towards the male and pin him down and kick him away and chase him around the viv....also when they call I have noticed this type of beahvior.

it is one of my great reason to have set up the 40 gal froglet tanks as I had noticed these alpha fems exhibit this same type of beahivor towards her offspring, and I just couldnt see how that'd be beneficial to a growing froglet...

Sidney,that almost seems to contradict what Phil said up top,apart from the male...by call...was on top,but we saw kicking.
guys i need all this really spelled out in black and white, as i haven't seen any of this before.The concept of an alpha female is totally new to me in pumillio,my only reference would be wolves,sidney give me more detail please.Don't think you would be patronising me by stating the obvious,these things are obvious to someone thats has kept a species,but not to a novice
thankyou
Stu
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#14
alpha= territorial and gets 1st dibs when its feeding time! In my years working with pumilio, I have only witnessed a good amount of females of various morphs in different setups being the aggressors. I have noticed it in a 1.1 and 1.2 ratio vivarium. it is definetly like watching a wolfpack....of 2-3 of course! :mrgreen: when I drop fruitflies, the "alpha" female must get to them first or all hell breaks loose. the male and second female will not approach their meal until the alpha is done if not, she will chase after them and will pin them down and literally ride them around the viv. I try to feed on different spots at the same time to distract her but seems shes too smart for my tricks. like many others, I like to play a pumilio call playback in the frogroom to get some of the males going, and when I do, I have noticed these several alpha fems go berserk in the tank and just attack both male and second female.... but I cant see much I can do about it as no matter what, they will end up having to be paired up and ILL just have to deal with this sort of behavior. unless theres offspring, they move out as soon as I see them leave the axils and display hunting "skils" :o
Stu&Shaz Wrote:
sidney ferrell Wrote:Ive been lucky enough to have a good amount of alpha females in various groups.... :?

when it is feeding time, she will always fly towards the male and pin him down and kick him away and chase him around the viv....also when they call I have noticed this type of beahvior.

it is one of my great reason to have set up the 40 gal froglet tanks as I had noticed these alpha fems exhibit this same type of beahivor towards her offspring, and I just couldnt see how that'd be beneficial to a growing froglet...

Sidney,that almost seems to contradict what Phil said up top,apart from the male...by call...was on top,but we saw kicking.
guys i need all this really spelled out in black and white, as i haven't seen any of this before.The concept of an alpha female is totally new to me in pumillio,my only reference would be wolves,sidney give me more detail please.Don't think you would be patronising me by stating the obvious,these things are obvious to someone thats has kept a species,but not to a novice
thankyou
Stu
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#15
Based on your relayed observations Stu, I will stand by my post above of ...2 males. If you were to hand me a $100.00 dollar bill whilst in Caesars Palace Las Vegas NV, I would bet it on the 'safest' bet. To try to win. That's all we are doing in most cases - by trying our best to sex little frogs. Nothing and NO method of sexing is exact here, we are only going with the best odds and making our attempts.

Like 98.7% of anything in this hobby, there is always a different opinion right around the corner. Sidney brings up a interesting observation but unfortunately it further clouds the issue by using the term 'Alpha".

Alpha implies that there is a Beta, therefore 2 animals - 2 females in this case. If you had only 2 animals in a vivarium and were positive that you had a pair, or what we refer to as 1.1 ,then there could be no such thing as an 'alpha' female. The female, however feisty, is still just...a female.

Now with the addition of a second female that so many hobbyist work with, to form the breeding 'trio' ,THEN you can have an 'alpha' female that most certainly can suppress the second female and make it 'subordinate' in the breeding hierarchy. Many times, a second female worked out fine, and assisting in increased egg laying and tadpole feeding, but social dynamics in a small glass box are...sometimes less than predictable.

Back to the Oophaga pumilio 'trio' designation. I would not recommend ever trying to acertain sex by utilizing anything other than a single animal in a vivarium all by itself, or 2 pumilio. Never three. Three together can give you all sorts of 'false' signals -like the suppressed third animal (the third wheel so to speak).

Some visual sex indicators that I've used:

1. Body shape - females are rounder, hippy-er. Males are a little more streamlined.

2. Males have a dark throat patch or even 2 lines of 'stretch marks' on either side on the throat from calling. This is easier to do with larger adult WC animals and much harder with younger or CB animals. Obviously, the older the male frogs, the more pronounced the throat area may be.

Some behavioral indicators:

1.male pumilio like to have a high vantage point in which to call from. Animals up very high and on prominent overhangs / broms leaves ect, may more likely be males.

2. A single pumilio freshly introduced into a brand new vivarium with no other animals, may call right away to try to establish territory. This may be assisted with a recorded call of a male pumilio.

Some thoughts and things that worked for me.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#16
Philsuma Wrote:Some visual sex indicators that I've used:

1. Body shape - females are rounder, hippy-er. Males are a little more streamlined.

2. Males have a dark throat patch or even 2 lines of 'stretch marks' on either side on the throat from calling. This is easier to do with larger adult WC animals and much harder with younger or CB animals. Obviously, the older the male frogs, the more pronounced the throat area may be.

Neither of those are always true. I've had males that were huge and round, and I'd say only a few males have ever had dark patches. This is what I was saying before, pumilio are extremely difficult to sex based on appearance.

Sorry I wasn't more specific before Stu. First of all, females usually beat up on others during feeding time, while males won't beat up females, but will fight eachother often. This usually occurs after misting or calling. Also, males stay up high for the most part, and females are usually on the ground and in the leaf litter.
Adam Hess
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#17
None of any of those are always true. That's the point...it's far from exact.
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#18
Philsuma Wrote:None of any of those are always true. That's the point...it's far from exact.

Well your answer seemed exact, as in this is the way it is. I used words like "usually" for a reason. Either way yes that is the point. With pumilio it's never exact.
Adam Hess
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#19
thedude Wrote:
Philsuma Wrote:None of any of those are always true. That's the point...it's far from exact.

Well your answer seemed exact, as in this is the way it is. I used words like "usually" for a reason. Either way yes that is the point. With pumilio it's never exact.

Sorry for the confusion - making it seem anything other than guesses and probabilities. I highlighted a sentence in the beginning of the post and that may preface my feelings and clear things up.
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#20
ha you guys :lol: ,your all giving me snippets of wisdom, they might differ slightly but there are consensuses that run true,for that i thank you for your time!!! i can apply all this with eyes that see what others don't stockmans eyes,I'm very lucky because the lass that you never hear from my darling looks hard too i do understand that this is not an exact science,all frogs are individuals,never more so than pums it seems.I am very aware of the big male that is called a female I've been told she's a lovely female,and replied yup thats the one thats been shouting his head off for the last ten minutes :lol: . Thats why I'm quizzing you,because I'm already aware of how difficult this is to get right,I am aware of how many prs of males are here,that guys with years of keeping are struggling to sex a pum, i just need to read all these signs now,to enable us to make the right choices. which is a big ask.So Sindney with his alpha female is co-oberating words by Adam and by Phil,it might be worded slightly differently,but essentially it means the same,it gives me a ball park observation to look at at feeding time with the frog that doesn't call...ha YET.......an extra string to my bow observation wise.
Keep it coming guys any other little details you can throw at me,to ellucidate the sex of a pum,anything at all,that i can apply.

Some really really helpful thoughts here,i sound sound like bloody Oliver saying "please sir can i have some more",but what the hell no harm in asking
cheers ya'll
bring it on
Stu
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