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Outbreeding Depression - Is it REALLY the issue?
#1
I keep hearin different reasons for not crossing populations, distortions and "better safe than sorry" approaches, but at best, some of these positions are very conservative at best, even the various studies themselves say so:

www.vortex9.org/reprints/COBISuppMat.doc

Even when trying to argue for it, people have really warped it to try to fit their position. So, is the breeding that would be necessary to test these positions REALLY taking away from the genetic diversity of our simulated "wild type variation" populations (in itself a hugely flawed concept) or is this another method to hide what they don't know?
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#2
As you did on Dendroboard, you are just looking for an excuse to breed morphs together. Somehow I don't think you will find any greater acceptance here than you did there.
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#3
Brian lets try and limit your argumentative, pointless, trolling, bs, to one forum.......the other one. And in truth when I say one forum I really mean none.
Jon
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#4
Try all you want to rationalize hybridizing but you are only going to be convincing yourself of something you already obviously want to do. So just do it already and quit trying to piss everyone off with your BS, lack of evidence and ecological understanding.
Adam Hess
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#5
thedude Wrote:Try all you want to rationalize hybridizing but you are only going to be convincing yourself of something you already obviously want to do. So just do it already and quit trying to piss everyone off with your BS, lack of evidence and ecological understanding.
Not to feed the troll...
Hard to hybridize when the OP keeps one morph in a 10 g.
Brian give it a rest...
-Beth
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#6
BcsTx Wrote:
thedude Wrote:Try all you want to rationalize hybridizing but you are only going to be convincing yourself of something you already obviously want to do. So just do it already and quit trying to piss everyone off with your BS, lack of evidence and ecological understanding.
Not to feed the troll...
Hard to hybridize when the OP keeps one morph in a 10 g.
Brian give it a rest...


Yes but he's openly encouraging others to do it, not just hybridizing different species but same species different locales as well. If even one newb crosses frogs at the suggestion of this buffoon it's gone too far. Ban this troll now for the good of the hobby.
Jon
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#7
Jon,

Brian's 'theories' and interests are nothing new to the hobby. Every so often / yearly it seems, someone will go on a 2-3 thread tear about mixing / hybridizing / line-breeding / albino assembly line yada yada yada......

Didn't 'catch' / take hold 13,10, 5, 2 years ago....won't now.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#8
It depends on how big a picture you are able to see. You have to read cross posts to realize just how ludicrous many of these ideas are. People are random breeding and creating populations that mimic wild diversity. Then, in another post, when it suits the new argument, they say the hobby is unable to do that due to disorganization. It is laughable how the "experts" contradict themselves. And when you point it out, they fear you. Why hide the truth? Who wants to have their hobby inundated with so much fiction?

Look at the facts: no one is preserving the wild diversity. So even if this would be ideal, let's stop pretending it is happening.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginn ... ion-3.html and you will see JP and Ed both admit it isn't happening. It never will. This being undeniable fact, arguing that there is no other ways to breed frogs borders on assinine. Enough with the fantasy, lets get on to dealing with reality.
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#9
There are lots of different ways to breed animals and plants for different results, some are bad and some are good. By changing the diet and habitat of dart frogs in our vivs, randomly breeding is possibly not the best method. Look at the difference between dogs and wolves and their ability to digest different things. This is from change in diet. As I read in "The Sheer Ecstacy of Being a Lunatic Farmer" by Joel Salatin, he said his son bred rabbits inbred for generations until there was a line that was hardy for their climate, feed, diseases, parasites, etc. They saw weak, individuals and problems for I think 7 generations and then all the deleterious alleles(my addition) were gone from the line.
I haven't read a paper(although I don't read many) that had more than a marginally statistically significant difference in deformations between outbred and animals bred from the same location and I haven't heard of problems other than localized adaptions in the wild which aren't going to occur in our tanks.
Am I saying to outcross animals or hybridize? NO I AM NOT. I'm saying to learn more about genetics and critically analyze our situations w/ sheer #'s of morphs we have, how many lines there are and realize inbreeding or outcrossing may be necessary if we are to keep the sheer #'s of morphs around. I have always thought that keeping a breeding pair healthy and able to produce for 15-20 years is our best hope. I just hope that dislike for individuals doesn't lead to dislike of views which may need to change over time. Or may need to change now(wikiri imports driving quest for all the "pure" locals there also).
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#10
Aaron,

Great post. I am unsure why exploring other ideas scares this hobby so much, especially when much of the "desired method" is little more than an impossible dream, whether it truly is best or not.
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#11
Perhaps Outbreeding Depression is not REALLY the issue. Perhaps the REAL issue is someone one with 3 months worth of experience keeping one morph of dart frogs, someone that has NEVER EVER BRED a dart frog is telling me trying to tell me what I'm doing wrong. It brings to mind the old saying "Those who can't do, teach." despite the fact they have absolutely zero clue what they are talking about. Oh yes and I almost forgot this so called "expert" refuses to provide any kind of reference for his expertise, schooling, degrees, etc, he also can't back a single word with any published papers. In short, he's talking out of his ass.
Jon
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#12
He's bred other animals. There are a lot of other animals that are bred other than darts. Dart breeding shouldn't exist in a world unto itself. Papers can be used to paint a picture if you only see the ones one person wants you to see or you don't read and understand them. Hybrid vigor is also a possibility of outbreeding.
I have a degree in geology and I've bred lots of frogs but I've never had a formal class in genetics. I do know that you can't freeze evolution(change) without freezing all the selective pressures. Either the selective pressures have to be there or no matter what you breed they will start to change. Either they can change for the better for the environments we have them in or they can stay the same or change for the worse. Personally I don't see why you'd want to keep the skittishness of frogs if it causes them stress and they don't do as well in captivity where there is constantly something going on. This can also lead to frogs bottlenecking or disappearing from the hobby all together. Since these frogs are never going back to the wild I think we should breed for the healthiest while also trying to keep some diversity. It just seems counterproductive to try and keep all the genetic diversity(when you can't) of animals that are never going back to the wild if that's what that type of program is aimed at. The animals aren't going to fail to be in captivity from inbreeding or outbreeding or genetic flaws, etc. they disappear because no one breeds them anymore. Their biggest threat in captivity is not being a good pet(I know, that's an oversimplification).
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#13
Aaron,

I think you hit the nail on the head. No one breeds them: gone.

Dart frogs, again, have become too much fantasy, based on their breeders being "better" than everyone else. And the counter-arguments, are based on fake attacks.

Even though I have the formal education including genetics (I find it funny there are both arguments that I never demonstrated this AND arguments that no university has my degree, LOL) , there are many brilliant people that learned it another way. And it really only takes common sense to figure out the outbreeding depression bit is being way overplayed.

Basically, if we are forced, by the reality of the situation, to linebreed frogs, why not show people how to do it well and for a very long time?

I have also read many papers on imports where they think they may be the same locales, but the information is missing. I see NO evil in testing them by breeding them together. If you think you might see OD in 5 generations, fine, track them that long. But for a 1 in 10,000 chance of OD, I'd take the bet and breed the frogs.
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#14
After all, it may be fun to say "we breed to maintain the genetic diversity in the wild population". But, shocking reality: you have already failed.
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#15
Aaron,
Please tell me what breeding chickens and other domestic fowl have to do with breeding wild type dart frogs?
Because that's where Brian's experience lies, in breeding DOMESTIC ANIMALS, not anywhere close to dart frogs.
I thank you for your post. I've just increased my ignore list by one.
Jon
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#16
Whether it is the best method or not matters little if the people who breed the frogs don't want someone else picking their frogs out for them, or waiting for them or having to wait since they didn't get the right sexes from the right "lines", etc.. I think it's a great comparison for how the animals in that program are doing compared to the other methods or lack thereof, that people use but I'd be very leery of trying to make it the standard. I think it would push people away who could help in keeping these animals around. I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket unless I'm really sure of that basketWink My focus is on producing in captivity for captivity and leaving the wild, wild. This constant quest for the newest, purest morph is very counterproductive to my personal goals w/in the hobby. I always wanted to save a representation of what's in the wild(or was) not the wild itself.

BrianWI Wrote:Aaron,

Great post. I am unsure why exploring other ideas scares this hobby so much, especially when much of the "desired method" is little more than an impossible dream, whether it truly is best or not.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#17
If you think our dart frogs are wild your mistaken. That ceased once they were put in a cage and no matter what, in 20 years of breeding our darts they will be completely domestic too. I don't know exactly where to draw that line but it's inevitable. Wild is wild because of wild selective pressures found only in the wild. Darts are already being selected for captivity I just think it should be done right. If you choose to ignore me for it, that's your right. I would personally like to find out as much as I can about genetics whether I like it or not. Chickens is where darts will be if they are kept in captivity. Is a dog a wolf? Is there anything we keep as people that hasn't changed?
And there are breeding programs to restore the diversity that was seen in barnyard chickens from 100 years ago. If we can't even keep the diversity of animals we consume as food how are we going to do this w/ darts? I'm sure that breeding chickens will have a lot of similarities w/ the future of dart frog breeding.

Rusty_Shackleford Wrote:Aaron,
Please tell me what breeding chickens and other domestic fowl have to do with breeding wild type dart frogs?
Because that's where Brian's experience lies, in breeding DOMESTIC ANIMALS, not anywhere close to dart frogs.
I thank you for your post. I've just increased my ignore list by one.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#18
BrianWI Wrote:Aaron,

I think you hit the nail on the head. No one breeds them: gone.
Good thing I'm breeding wild type frogs, how about you Brian?? Oh wait, you've never bred ANY FROGS

Dart frogs, again, have become too much fantasy, based on their breeders being "better" than everyone else. And the counter-arguments, are based on fake attacks.
Your fantasy is that you know anything about dart frogs.
Even though I have the formal education including genetics (I find it funny there are both arguments that I never demonstrated this AND arguments that no university has my degree, LOL) , there are many brilliant people that learned it another way. And it really only takes common sense to figure out the outbreeding depression bit is being way overplayed.
Finally you admit you have no formal education regarding genetics.
Basically, if we are forced, by the reality of the situation, to linebreed frogs, why not show people how to do it well and for a very long time?
We are not forced by reality or your dilusional fantasy land.

I have also read many papers on imports where they think they may be the same locales, but the information is missing. I see NO evil in testing them by breeding them together. If you think you might see OD in 5 generations, fine, track them that long. But for a 1 in 10,000 chance of OD, I'd take the bet and breed the frogs.
And what are you going to do with 5 generations worth of absolutely worthless garbage hybrid frogs? I've got a great idea on where you could put them.
Jon
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#19
BrianWI Wrote:Even though I have the formal education including genetics (I find it funny there are both arguments that I never demonstrated this AND arguments that no university has my degree, LOL) , there are many brilliant people that learned it another way. And it really only takes common sense to figure out the outbreeding depression bit is being way overplayed.

Brian, please settle this once and for all, where is your genetics degree(s) from?
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#20
Just to add in 3 things really quick...

1. It seems the biggest threat to a type of frog in captivity is over breeding, because once everyone has them, nobody wants them. This has been proven quite often, and all the highest producing frogs are the ones that go through boom and bust cycles. Unless they are azureiventris or trivittatus, and then they go through bust and bust cycles...

2. Actually, they are still technically wildtype frogs. Simply having an animal in captivity, or even breeding several generations in captivity, does NOT in any way make it domesticated.

3. I've said many times before that when we have 2 lines of UNKNOWN locality frogs that look the same, and are most likely from the same area, they should be mixed. Take all the years of Cristobals for example. We keep every year separate as a different line but they all look the same and most likely came from the same place. The hobby can't sustain all these different lines long term really, so it would be better to mix them and keep the gene pool large and varied. HOWEVER, this is not the same thing as mixing an unknown line cristobal with and unknown line rio branco. If someone wants to do it that's fine, just be honest and don't try to pass them off as something they aren't. And don't try and convince others to do it. This hobby has done great for a very long time, and the natural feel to it is definitely one of the things that draws people in (or at least makes them stay).

Personally, no matter what turn this hobby takes, I will always have frogs that are as close to wild type frogs as I can get, that are sustainably harvested and have locality info.
Adam Hess
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