Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
TOO much powdered supplement?
#1
This is, in a way directed to Rich or Phil, but anyone's input is welcome.

My cobalt's are getting so big and breeding so much I have stepped up the amount of food I put in, have 3 of them, they keep the micro-fauna in check to point I don't see any of it, unless I start flipping leaves over. I am concerned about how fast they eat though, and do not want to dust a second feeding so I don't overload them with supplement. Thanks in advance.
2.1.0 Cobalt
1.1.0 Aurotaenia
Reply
#2
How often you dust should depend on how many times a week you feed fruit flies.

I only feed my adults fruit flies about once or twice a week and I dust at each feeding. If you are feeding every day ( should be an exaggeration) then there is not need to supplement each feeding.

Bottom line, there's no scientific reports to say exactly how much x,y, or z they need, and if there were there is no way , short of force feeding, that we can get the exact amounts down their throats . So it's a bit of guess work.

The good news is I see very little evidence of either often hypo or often hypervitaminosis (when people are dusting) , and some, but little evidence of calcium deficiency (when people are dusting).
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#3
8 times out of 10, I see or hear about people that IMO, are not dusting enough and/or using only Rapashy or a powdered supplement that is 1 year old or older.

Given the two choices of:

To dust

or

Not to dust

I will always err on the side of... 'Dust'...
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply
#4
^ Dust how often?


More than 9 out of ten times we are just guessing when a frog has health issues. 'We' being us non-vets...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#5
Another example of the variables involved with dusting would be springtails.
Springtails have enough nutrients on their own (high in calcium , as only one example) to sustain young frogs. Old frogs too I would imagine . And before someone says that big frogs don't eat small things, I have personally watched my terribilis snatch mites out of a culture I placed-in-viv. Nothing but mites left in the culture, no springs left after the mites had taken over.
We have so many different possibilities for micro-fauna to establish itself and benefit our frogs in a more natural way ( is it better to pop a pill or eat some fruits and vegetables?) that the obsession I read every day about dusts make me want to bring up better nutrients in food rather than on food.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#6
RichFrye Wrote:Another example of the variables involved with dusting would be springtails.
Springtails have enough nutrients on their own (high in calcium , as only one example) to sustain young frogs. Old frogs too I would imagine . And before someone says that big frogs don't eat small things, I have personally watched my terribilis snatch mites out of a culture I placed-in-viv. Nothing but mites left in the culture, no springs left after the mites had taken over.
We have so many different possibilities for micro-fauna to establish itself and benefit our frogs in a more natural way ( is it better to pop a pill or eat some fruits and vegetables?) that the obsession I read every day about dusts make me want to bring up better nutrients in food rather than on food.

Rich I think of myself as little more than utter novice,but that last statement is why i try to give my frogs something different at every opportunity,our reliance on "ff and dust" because we "can get away with it" will never sit well with me. I'm utterly sure I take risks you wouldn't to facilitate this. One day it might come back and haunt me,but so far strong frogs strong kids. That is the dilema huh, I don't have the science backing , i know damn well i don't have knowledge like yourself,but the route I took as a child 30plus years ago yields kids that grow like weeds and in some cases beat parents for size.


Damn i wish for a day when we have 50/60 feeders that we know how to culture,that might be the day i stop looking for wild grub and taking risks.

Diet is all, effort is required,this is where our hobby will progress, in time, if we really want to be better....for our frogs.
Let us not settle for pills

Stu.




Stu
Reply
#7
Stu,

Any sort of varied diet is a goal - what why can all strive for, but I question that the majority of vivariums in our hobby have the ability to 1. sustain adequate levels of microfauna and 2. have the calcium resources to pass on to said microfauna and ultimately the frogs.

Don't villain-ize powdered supplementation. It's quite frankly the one facet of all exotic animal husbandry that has been most responsible for breakthroughs in both longevity and breeding success. It's just that valuable.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply
#8
Although "villain-ize" or vilify may be strong words, and not quite what either Stu or I was going for, (sorry Stu , if I am speaking out of turn)
these dusts are only as necessary an evil as we make them.
My bottom line is that while I dust at almost every single feeding, I worry not about Rapashy, Nec., Herp. , RepCal., "rotations" etc. because I have a good supply of calcium springing and scurrying around and enough established vivs in my own personal collection that if my supplements are a bit out of date, or I happen to skip feeding altogether for a couple weeks ( and even quite longer , due to frogs metabolism) , I am confident that even with my smallest vivs (16 gallon as the smallest breeders) I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about hypovitaminosis or the lack of any other nutrient.

Now, if this thread is only geared toward dusts and the need to rotate and dust often. I can bow out. If we want to talk about the possibility of moving away from dust reliance and toward real food reliance (a lofty goal, yes) I'm in.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#9
If I could speak for Stu as well Big Grin

I believe he was talking about provision of wild collected feeder insects, not only those that can sustain themselves in viv. There's a massive difference.

Presumably our frogs would thrive on a varied diet of wild collected insects (i.e. the natural situation), and we simply work back from there to a point where a much reduced diet is indeed dependent on supplementation? There is a spectrum in between.

While I agree that supplements are a necessary and important aspect of amphibian husbandry in the vast majority of cases, I am also convinced that exactly the same supplement obsession occurs in our hobby as it does in human nutrition. I have searched and have never been able to find actual empirical evidence of the comparative benefits of different supplements on darts. Before people start providing links, I would like to draw a distinction between evidence and educated theorising! There is plenty of the latter which is no bad thing, but it would be nice to see some progression towards actual results. Unfortunately I do not breed in large enough volumes to conduct this type of study myself.

Again, just to be clear, I agree wholeheartedly that supplements are necessary and beneficial, but I think I agree with Rich in that I find the whole obsession with rotation of multiple supplements rather perplexing. My frogs get a varied diet including wild insects, in-viv microfauna, cultured insects and occasional supplementation. I cannot imagine how their health, appearance or the health of their offspring could improve... We're not villainising supplementation, just keeping it in perspective!

Just the outpourings of my mind...

Nick
Reply
#10
Philsuma Wrote:Stu,

Any sort of varied diet is a goal - what why can all strive for, but I question that the majority of vivariums in our hobby have the ability to 1. sustain adequate levels of microfauna and 2. have the calcium resources to pass on to said microfauna and ultimately the frogs.

Don't villain-ize powdered supplementation. It's quite frankly the one facet of all exotic animal husbandry that has been most responsible for breakthroughs in both longevity and breeding success. It's just that valuable.

Phil no ,not really trying to bash the supliments,i think they are important at the moment and i think have helped our hobby make strides forwards,I was trying to get over the aspiration of better,nutrition for our frogs,pretty much Rich's lofty goals (ha ha I think).
Im stressing this i'm not in our learned friends' position with years and years of experience plus tanks that evolved over a great deal of time,therefore my use of supliments must be far more important,and yes i keep them in date and love my repashy.
Its just i want more...to have that more varied diet.
I just don't want us to accept that ff's and some dust is enough,i think there is a mindset that it is, in our hobby,that we except our difficent diet and can make it right with supps. Beyond that Nick has way more eloquently stated,what i'm feebly trying to get over.Thank you kind sir.

Rich i'll have no apology Big Grin

although I would ask that with the OP's blessing that you give us as much detailed background as you can,regarding how we can facilitate a reliance on real grub.Now I know we have talked about this before,on some level.could we start with an overview on substrates and how this can lead to the maximum amount on in viv fauna,it seems a logical place to start,erm maybe Smile the concept of how one might get a maximum build up of variety and number of in viv fauna without having to wait quite as long as you've kept darts :lol: ,might be a cracking thing to discuss.
thanks and regards all

Stu
Reply
#11
Having read all this, it was not my intention to spark a heated debate. But I did gather some good info from it.

If I only fed these frogs a couple times a week, I fear they would start eating plants. They pony up to the food pile, as was described to me in one of my 'long time ago posts', and nothing lives. They have eaten the springs that I have seeded multiple times to the point I never see them unless I have new leaf litter in the viv. I know they are there if I turn a few leaves, but anything that surfaces is fodder. I have seen them bounce 12+ inches in 2 hops after springs that are brave enough to come out in the light. I know they eat random native ff that get in through my screen as well, they are quite arboreal, this bunch.

So I feed them at least once a day, morning and late on the weekends. I am considering QT'ing the female still, because they all seem to be slowly getting thinner since they began breeding a couple months ago. This is all still new stuff, so what to expect is a mystery for me. But like clockwork they are at it every 5-7 days. The thinning has made me give them a little more food to fatten them back up, but this could be bad also I suppose. I do know for a fact they are eating the dusted ff 100%, with maybe a stray escapee here or there. That was the reason for my original posting.

Knowing this, am I OD'ing them on nutrient? I dust every time with my new guys, because they are not as bold or relentless yet ( and too small to keep up with the spring population ). But my cobalts were juvies when they came home and ff was just a larger version of the springs they ate all day everyday for the first 1.5 years.

Hopefully, this is a better detailed description of my original question.


*** side note*** I rotate good old pink/blue with repashay, and if its blue day then its blue day, I don't mix the 2 together. So different day = different container always
2.1.0 Cobalt
1.1.0 Aurotaenia
Reply
#12
No worries Dan....THIS (discussion) is the perfect way for all to learn and for best practices, new techniques to emerge.

I NEVER consider (afraid of) 'overdosing'.

I ALWAYS consider (being careful NOT to) - 'underdosing'.

I use some sort of superfine powdered supplement - Calcium or Vitamins, at 90% of the time.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply
#13
Dan on the thread ,i think a real,interesting,debate,but a good honest respectful one,maybe passion ,but not heat,the way forward,how we all learn. How our hobby moves forward. i agree with Phil completely on this it is why these forums are so good for us new guys. The den is normally great for this stuff,its why some of us brits come here to learn off the likes of Phil and Rich,with all their knowledge.

Buddy when frogs breed they expend alot of energy,might just be that simply you need to cater for this by upping the quantity of food.Tincs eat a lot of grub when breeding, good luck

Stu
Reply
#14
Not ignoring this thread, and I think the debate has been worth while.
Distracted by the Juchems' FOIA /MSU Frye frogs thread.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#15
Been following this thread and would lime to pose a question. Do people feel its possible to over supplement when using uv with frogs?
I intend to use t5 Arcadia bulbs over my next frog tanks either through mesh or through optiwhite (starfire glass I think you guys call it?) I'm thinking of reducing my multivitamin dusting or alternatively eliminating my 1-2 times per week dusting of calcium +d3. Any thoughts?
Ben
Reply
#16
Good question Ben....on the UV plus superfine ? I think it highly possible, but again, like most things hobby related - I've nothing to back that up.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)