Hi everyone! New member from Kentucky.

[Moriko]

Hello everyone,

My name is Tonya. I'm a 32 year old mom from Kentucky. As of now I do not have any dart frogs. Most of my time has been spent on researching and doing my part to make sure that this 'hobby' actually works for myself and the dart frogs as well.

Luckily I stumbled upon this forum in my research and have a wonderful feeling that this will be the place that can help me with all of my questions and concerns with owning these beauties. I am completely new to the entire process.. having nothing larger than a basic aquarium setup to care for. That is why I'm taking such precautions with this. Have not so much as even stepped into buying an enclosure yet lol.

My hopes are to set up a self sufficient vivarium with live plants, and a natural rain forest type feel before adding any frogs. I'm expecting the set up process to take a few months to be sure that it is sustainable before taking any risk with little lives.

I'm more than open to having any PM help or tips from anyone in my area as well. This will be something that my family will take pride in and hope to have for many years, if not forever.

Thanks for your time and I'm very happy to have found a group with the same interest and enthusiasm that I have for this breed of frog. Hopefully my questions in the future will not become too much lol.

Tonya

[DianeCarter]

Welcome, Tonya! Glad to have you here, what started your interest in PDFs? I've been here a bit less than a year, and I too did months of research and prep before I got any frogs. I love them, and really enjoy this hobby, I'm sure you will too. Any ideas on which type you want to get? The size and configuration of your viv will depend on which frogs you get, tincts, thumbs, etc. Some frogs like/need the height, and others are more terrestrial and need a larger footprint.
Again, welcome, you will find lots of help here!
Diane

[Moriko]

Thank you for the welcome Diane!

I've always had an interest in PDFs but until recently didn't know that they could be kept as pets. My family and I have been talking about different reptile ideas because we are looking for something long term. We researched bearded dragons, crested geckos, salamanders, etc.. but as great as they all are, they didn't capture my heart. Upon looking for what would be the 'without a doubt' pet, I ran across Josh's frogs website. I saw the PDFs and was absolutely thrilled with the idea. I have always been amazed by the PDFs at zoos/aquariums as well as the rest of my family. After talking to my boys about giving up their plan of having their own terrarium setup, they were also very happy with the idea of having PDFs.

I've been researching for a few months now with the original though of having a 'mixed frog setup' but reading so much about how that could harm and the species them I've backed away from that idea. I have no plans of breeding, but the frogs don't know that lol. I can't stop nature. Although it would be beautiful.. I wouldn't do anything to harm the PDFs. With that being the case I haven't decided on a specific type yet. I'm going to have a very large vivarium (36x36x18) so to make the most of the space I would want them to explore the entire area.

With the PDFs being so specific with care and how to group them.. that is where I came to a pause. Being a beginner I am completely lost at how many to have, which species work better in groups, which are active, as well as finding a bright species. I'm completely aware that I can't have the rainbow effect with grouping species.. so I hope to add as much color with one species as possible.

As far as thumbs go, I had dabbled into the idea of having a couple thumbs mixed into the setup but read that they are more difficult to care for. If that was an option it would most likely wait until later if at all.

So my basic problems are -

Deciding the type of PDF
Deciding how many could be housed happily without aggression
Deciding the male to female ratio after figuring out the two other issues.

Hopefully being a member of this forum will help with these issues as well as others that I'm sure will pop up over time.

Thanks again,
Tonya

[DianeCarter]

Tonya,
I know you will get lots of responses/advice, starting soon this morning! And I'm glad you understand that you can't/shouldn't mix breeds.
That will be a NICE sized viv! I think I've seen people recommend P. terribilis for large tanks, and have said that they do well in groups, we'll have to wait and see if that is so. I don't have these (yet!) so I can't speak from personal experience.
What I CAN say from personal experience, is that I just bet you will love this so much that you will soon be building viv#2, then #3, etc, very quickly! Why limit yourself to just one breed of frog? There are SOOO many gorgeous, interesting frogs, you might as well given in and realize you might end up with a few vivs. That's a good thing!
Something to keep in mind...you may decide you must have breed #x, and build your viv for them, set your heart of them, and then find, that you can't find them
I would recommend checking out what is available to you, in your area, before you decide on one breed. Are there any breeders in your area? Or any of the awesome stores that have PDFs? Many people really prefer to transport frogs themselves, even if it means a few hours drive, as opposed to shipping them. Shipping USUALLY works fine, but there is always a risk to the frogs, you know? For myself, I believe I initially decided truncatus would be good for my first frogs, then when it came time to buy, I couldn't find any nearby, and got nervous about shipping, etc. Then I discovered someone 2 hours away, who I could buy from directly, and I changed my plan.
Just food for thought.
Diane

[Moriko]

That will be great! I'd love to have as much advice as possible to make sure that this is a success.

I have looked at some P. terribilis before (orange) and they are beautiful! Not sure how my setup will be yet though. I've been trying to look into finding a way to divide a large setup without chance of any PDFs getting to the other side. I thought that if I could divide it into two equal parts, then I would be able to house 2 species without any contact. In my mind I can see how it would work.. lighting would be equal on both parts, as well as humidity, airflow, waterflow, etc. Has anyone actually tried anything like this before? I'm pretty much set on getting a larger habitat like posted earlier, but if this was manageable I could have a mixture of PDFs, while keeping the species contained.

Please excuse me if I should have started this in a different place.. but I'm new to forums in general. I'm more than happy to post where it should be done if this is inappropriate.

Back to your question Diane, I plan on going to the Reptile Expo in my area after the setup is complete and thriving. That way I will be able to hand pick my PDFs and ask questions while I'm there.

[Philsuma]

Welcome to Dart Den Tonya !

It's all here - the information, pics, helpful people and best of all...the frogs. We can probably find some froggers near you to provide you with the species that you want, when you are ready so you can avoid shipping costs. Also, the fellowship and community here on Dart Den will also translate to real life, with many members opening up their homes and collections to host meetings and gatherings.

Please don't hesitate to post often. Any questions is a good question and above all...enjoy yourself and these unique animals.

[joneill809]

Welcome Tonya! I got into the hobby last year for similar reasons - my kid asked for frog I ended up going with a pair of azureus because they were big and bold (and blue!) and seemed like they would tolerate little faces hovering around their enclosure better than other frogs. We have been thrilled with them (they started breeding this summer which engaged the kids even more) and I recently added a group of juvenile red galacts who make an appearance at feeding time. Our enclosures (18x18x24) are not nearly as big as what you are planning though!

Good luck with picking your frog(s)! Dart Den is a great resource with lots of good advice!

[Moriko]

Thanks for the welcome Philsuma and Jim!

This seems like it will be a very nice and helpful group to be in.

Finding froggers in my area would be wonderful. There is a reptile expo close to me a couple of times a year, so I'm hoping that there are a few breeders or enthusiasts around.

Jim, isn't it amazing the things that we do for children.. that sometimes end up being for ourselves as well lol. The blues are lovely and have captured my boys' attention too. Such colorful choices to choose from makes it extremely difficult to commit to just one. You say that you have added red galacts? Is that in the same enclosure? If so.. how do they seem to be cohabiting? I would really love to add another species to mine after some experience.. but it takes time and knowledge to know which species will not cause hybridization and will live happily together.

[joneill809]

Jim, isn't it amazing the things that we do for children.. that sometimes end up being for ourselves as well lol. The blues are lovely and have captured my boys' attention too. Such colorful choices to choose from makes it extremely difficult to commit to just one. You say that you have added red galacts? Is that in the same enclosure? If so.. how do they seem to be cohabiting? I would really love to add another species to mine after some experience.. but it takes time and knowledge to know which species will not cause hybridization and will live happily together.

Yeah, the kids get me Googling all kinds of stuff...and yes, in the end this turned into my hobby more than theirs :oops: They do help with maintenance here and there - they enjoy misting and dumping flies (surprise surprise - my job is ensuring everything makes it into the viv). I have been surprised that they have maintained an interest over the past year. Most of the time they just like playing "where's waldo" with the frogs. They really like the azureus grow out tank (currently 9 froglets) since there is so much activity in there.

Sorry - I meant I added red galacts to my collection. I have two 18x18x24 vivariums side by side. I have 4 red galacts in the enclosure on the left and the pair of azureus in the enclosure on the right.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6815&start=20#p43708

The galacts are supposed to do better breeding in groups. No aggression yet, but they are still small (about an inch). Though the viv footprint is small, I ended up spending a lot of time on a ledge background to increase the usable space in the viv.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6815#p43384

The galacts have only been in their viv for about a week (following QT), and two live down on the floor, and the other two live in the caves in the upper ledges. I've had pretty good success so far using vertical space for larger frogs by providing overlapping ledges that act like stairs that they can haul themselves up. My azureus routinely are at the top of the viv hunting flies and visiting the broms. I hardly ever see them scaling the glass anymore, but they do climb the ledges and more robust vines and plants daily. There's one fern they continue to try and climb but they come crashing down since they are getting pretty big

[Moriko]

Quite a beautiful setup you have there Jim! Very impressive!

Congrats on your froglets btw!

Well, I wish you the best of luck with your red galacts. It is a gorgeous PDF to add and your viv should make them very happy.

I was curious to know if azureas utilized their climbing abilities often, so thank you for answering that question for me lol. I love the coloring of the azureas but have been thinking about leucs as well because of their love of exploration. From what I understand the leucs really utilize every bit of the viv that they live in. I'm just hoping to have colorful, active, and happy PDFs to care for.. which is one of the reasons I joined here. You can get the best information from people who have a love for their PDFs. So much info online is really confusing and contradicting. To speak with others who have the passion and experience is priceless!

I giggle a bit each time I read about them on the fern lol.

[joneill809]

Thanks! I've had a lot of fun building out the enclosures. Yeah I was surprised how much they climb. They started climbing more when I cut their feedings back to every other day - as juveniles I was feeding them daily. Now on day two they are climbing around tracking down stragglers. I'm still new to the hobby, but from what I have read leucs should be a great choice for your viv! They do well in groups, so the 36x36x18 should be great for them. I'm not sure what the appropriate number would be but I'd imagine it would be a nice sized group. I'm sure someone with leuc experience will jump in!

[JayMillz]

Welcome to DD! I got some orange Terribs for my first frogs this last summer and have them in a viv in my 9 yr olds room and they are always out in the open for viewing. They're great. I agree with Jon, another orange frog you might be interested in looking up, but I have no direct exp. with are some Leucomelas, they are more abundant in the hobby as well so finding some froglets shouldn't be much of a problem. And since you're doing a lot of research first, I wouldn't stress much about accidently killing them. Yeah, crap happens sometimes and that's understandable. But with Leucs, replacing them wouldn't really break your budget if it was needed. Your biggest expenditure will come into your plant collection that will form in my opinion lol. Whatever you decide on, make sure you post lots and lots of pics!

[DianeCarter]

See Tonya, I told you there would be lots of friendly advice coming your way! There are several posts here about splitting a large viv into 2 or 3 smaller vivs--I remember reading them here on DD, maybe if you do a search you can find them.

I CAN speak to leucs and azureus, cause I have both, although I am a bit backwards in my experience! Everyone says leucomelas can be kept in groups and live/breed without much aggression, as a rule. Azureus (esp females) can get aggressive, so everyone recommends just a 1.1 pair. This is where I am backwards! I have a 1.1 pair of leucomelas, because I bought them as a proven pair. And I have a group of 4 azureus, because (it is said) if they are raised together there is usually no aggression. I highly recommend both breeds, for what your goals are! Both are gorgeous, colorful, and fascinating to watch. Both are OUT THERE and very bold! Not fraidy cats, not shy, not hidden much at all. I've had the 4 azureus for at least 6 months now, and they are at least close to full grown and mature, and there has never been any aggression at all. And I do watch them A LOT! They have all 4 grown like little weeds, they are all very healthy looking, good eaters, inquisitive, etc. I haven't had signs of courtship yet, so there is always the possibility that aggression could occur in the future, with courtship activities. (I have my fingers crossed!) Both of these breeds would be good with kids, it wouldn't take much patience to be able to observe them frequently. On the other hand, for your purposes, I would NOT recommend azureus or R. imitators--they are rather secretive and hidden, difficult to see much. And the sizes/colors aren't quite as vibrant and attractive, esp for kids.

[Moriko]

Thanks JayMillz!

Orange terribs are amazing! How many do you have housed together? I've read so much info that contradicts other info, but I had read that they were extremely territorial. That is what strayed me away from them. Maybe I just need to push all of the info out of my mind that I've read.. because that is partially why I'm so confused about these frogs lol.

I must say, it is rather brave to have the viv in your child's room lol. I think that is awesome! I personally couldn't do that myself, as mine couldn't be trusted to not open the viv and try to touch. Because of that, I plan on having them in my direct line of sight. My boys are good boys, but just aren't quite ready for that.

I haven't completely decided on the type of PDF yet.. but maybe making a new topic could help with that. I think that is what I will do, and hope to get as many opinions as possible.

Hey Diane! Some great info there! One confusing part though. You wouldn't recommend Azureus? Even in possibly a 3:1 set with only one female?

Thanks again for the welcome everyone. It is much appreciated!

[DianeCarter]

So sorry, Tonya, I mixed up my A frogs! I DO recommend Azureus, like I said, if they are raised together they are good! I DO NOT recommend Auratus, they are secretive, aloof, etc. Again, sorry!

How old are your boys?

[Moriko]

Oh ok, thanks for clarifying lol.

My boys are 10 and 8. My youngest's birthday is actually today lol. A New Year's baby.

That makes sense though. I've read that they are hardy PDFs for beginners.. but being so secretive has made me think of the others a bit more. I did read that the green/bronze auratus are a little less shy.. but it always depends on the frog.

[DianeCarter]

My auratus are green and black, I've had them about 7 months, maybe a bit more. They are full grown now--froglets when I got them in early June. It's funny, a month or two ago I would have said they were bold, but they weren't quite full grown then. They were all 3 out and about, checking everything out, etc. Very bold! And definitely hardy. Now, for about the past month, they are hardly ever out! I actually wondered if they all mysteriously died or something! I think it's sexual maturity, honestly! I think they've hit that stage, and now are elusive. I have been watching very CLOSELY for a few days, and I've seen 2 of them. They look good, great actually, I think it must just be they are full grown now, and their tendencies are changing. Which does match the descriptions I've read about them. Sad, though, I have enjoyed watching them all these months, and now it's difficult to find them!

[DianeCarter]

As for your boys, happy birthday! I think birthdays apply (at least equally) to the mom, as well as the child!
Now I must brag a bit. This year I turned 50, and finally became a grandma, for the first time! My daughter had her baby (my grandson) this past Friday!!!!! Everyone has always said being a grandparent is better, now I believe it!

[Moriko]

Thank you! And a big congrats to you as well!

I think I may be decided on one of the species. I'm really being drawn toward the Azureus. From what I understand, as long as the female ratio is kept much lower than the males, they should be fine. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong. The only question is how many could be housed comfortably. If I split the viv, it would still have around 50 gallons of space. Does the same ratio go for the azureus as the other PDFs? 1 for each 5/10 gallons of space? I would want to make sure that there was room incase breeding were to happen.

[DianeCarter]

Good for you! Azureus are great, you won't be disappointed! And with 50 gallons, you can have a total of 5, comfortably. You can have a 2.3 or a 3.2 group, I would go with 3.2, but they need to grow up together! Hopefully if you get a group, they will be OK together.