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Too many springtails?
#1
Is it possible to have too many in a tank? I seeded REALLY heavy in an unoccupied tank and now they are THICK.......Frogs will occupy it soon though so i figure they will get mowed down.
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#2
yes..it's possible. Feeder insect crawling next to or onto the frogs can stress them out. Once you place the frogs in the viv, they just may cut that population down to size. I would not feed them any FF for several days as well, to insure they crack into the springs really hard. Just observe them well for a couple days, and if the springs are still crawling all over the place and stressing the frogs - remove the frogs and hand-eradicate a lot of the springs.
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#3
Going to be some Green Imitators, I read alot about how they like the springs.....i think i went a little overboard.
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#4
If you have some extra substrate you could switch out the new for some of the springtail filled stuff and get a ton of extra cultures going.
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#5
Didnt think about that, I do have 4-5 gallons of abg sitting around.....
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#6
I have a few species of frogs that aren't too crazy for springtails so, as a result, their tanks are overrun with them. I harvest springtails daily from their tanks to feed pumilio, pumilio babies, reticulata, and start new cultures.
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#7
Well, i started 3 cultures....2 smaller and one large.
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#8
zachk Wrote:I have a few species of frogs that aren't too crazy for springtails so, as a result, their tanks are overrun with them. I harvest springtails daily from their tanks to feed pumilio, pumilio babies, reticulata, and start new cultures.

Huh, what frogs are those?
Glenn
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#9
Ameerega bassleri and Phyllobates aurotaenia
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#10
zachk Wrote:Ameerega bassleri and Phyllobates aurotaenia

Interesting, I don't have any experience with those frogs. All of my frogs go nuts for springs, including full grown Tincs. They're one of my favorite feeders and feed tons out. They're like Lays potato chips "You can't eat just one!" :lol:
Glenn
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#11
It's been awhile since I has any Ameerega but I know my terribilis will inhale springtails.
While I'm sure it's possible to have a springtail population so high it may stress some frogs, I've never seen anything like that happen.
What many times happens when a population reaches 'critical mass' is there will be a mass die-off. I forget the exact reason (read about it years ago) for the mass die off but essentially a number will survive and start the whole process of expanding until die -off again.
Has anybody ever had a booooming culture suddenly die in a culture or a tank which had huge number suddenly not have a booooming population?
For the most part springtails will not climb all over healthy living frogs. They offer the springs nothing to feed on. A dead frogs which is rotting is another matter. I think people get freaked out when they find a dead frog being fed on by a pile of springs and assume the springs killed the frog. Not the case at all.
If I had to choose between a full blown over-run springtail viv and one that needs to be seeded I'd choose the former. I've yet to personally see any one frog from the species I've worked with stressed out by springs.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#12
frogfreak Wrote:
zachk Wrote:Ameerega bassleri and Phyllobates aurotaenia

Interesting, I don't have any experience with those frogs. All of my frogs go nuts for springs, including full grown Tincs. They're one of my favorite feeders and feed tons out. They're like Lays potato chips "You can't eat just one!" :lol:

Actually, there used to be the thought that springs were analogous to potato chips in nutritional quality. We now know this is far from true. The calcium alone they provide is hugely beneficial.
Watching pums especially inhale them is like watching a munchie stricken pot-head go at it.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#13
RichFrye Wrote:Actually, there used to be the thought that springs were analogous to potato chips in nutritional quality. We now know this is far from true. The calcium alone they provide is hugely beneficial.
Watching pums especially inhale them is like watching a munchie stricken pot-head go at it.

Lol!! So true!Hey Rich, have you ever come across anything about their nutritional value? I have not...

Myself, I will pour thousands into vivs at one time. If the frogs want to get away from them they simply climb to a perch, until they want to munch on them again.
Glenn
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#14
frogfreak Wrote:
RichFrye Wrote:Actually, there used to be the thought that springs were analogous to potato chips in nutritional quality. We now know this is far from true. The calcium alone they provide is hugely beneficial.
Watching pums especially inhale them is like watching a munchie stricken pot-head go at it.

Lol!! So true!Hey Rich, have you ever come across anything about their nutritional value? I have not...

Myself, I will pour thousands into vivs at one time. If the frogs want to get away from them they simply climb to a perch, until they want to munch on them again.


I did read up on the value of them awhile back and the main portion I took away was calcium. I'm sure there are other nutritional benefits to them , but it was awhile back and I can't remember. I do know that without them our whole obligate and thumb hobby would never be where it is today.
I've seen some pretty crazy bug populations in the wild and the wild frogs seem to have the same take on being bugged...move away from them. I guess that's an important aspect to a viv for a lot of reasons...having room to move or move away.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#15
The Hobby has pretty much debunked any theory that any type of feeder insect can cause direct mortality or 'eat' a Dart Frog.

Rich is correct when saying, any correlation between seeing a mass of springtails and a dead frog is heavily post mortem.

However...

We cannot overlook that the risk of Cumulative stress and high numbers of any uneaten feeder insect, springtails, bean beetles, anything, can absolutely cause harmful stress, debilitate the animal and result in death. Now while excess feeder insects ALONE may not account solely for the death, combine that source of stress with any one or several of the following:

1. New inexperienced keeper
2. Smaller than adequate enclosure
3. Constantly checking on the frogs - opening the doors, excess misting and fidgeting with things, ect.
4. Too high temperatures
5. Too low humidity
6. Too high animal density
7. Incompatible sex ratio - too many males in most case, too many females with other species.
8. Improper hardscaping and planting - barren enclosure, nowhere to hide.

And I'm sure we can find and list more. So while excess springtails may be 'fine' in a lot of instances,especially when the hobbyist is "advanced" / experienced, it bears looking into as a potential animal stressor that the newer hobbyist needs to be made aware of, IMO.
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#16
Crickets. Crickets can and will kill most any animal. A large cricket is predacious and can inflict savage bites. Several crickets can stress and kill even a much larger reptile. Yet another reason to never use feeder crickets for dart frogs.
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#17
Philsuma Wrote:Crickets. Crickets can and will kill most any animal. A large cricket is predacious and can inflict savage bites. Several crickets can stress and kill ever a large reptile. Yet another reason to never use feeder crickets for dart frogs.

Yup. They'll eat anything. Not good for diurnal frogs when the predator is nocturnal.
Crickets can also carry all sorts of parasites, from tapeworms s to coccidia and all sorts in between. Evil creatures.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#18
Was also wondering about springtails as I have a culture that I received from a popular online breeder. Are most hobbyist using them as supplemental feeders and tank janitors?
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#19
Springtails are used for most species - 50/50 IMO

Now for pumilio and other obligates - 70% froglet feeders, 30% janitors
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#20
To quantify their value, I doubt we would have any real production of obligates in our hobby today without springtails. Thumbs may not be quite as dirrectly tied to them , but close.
They are a must in our hobby.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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