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Philsuma Wrote:He's on the extreme side of the bar. I would bet my collection that there are no more than 5% of PDF hobbyist who are against a sustainable / responsible import.
I thought the point of the ONE or TWO shows a year, that deal heavily with Conservation and Awareness was to at least portray to the attending public that ALL the frogs on table were CB and the fruits of the hobby labour ect...and to say "look, you too can breed frogs" . That type of thing.
Now...some WC frogs in the hotel away from the venue....
Is that wrong and hypocritical ^^^ seriously, I won't be offended. I'm just trying to make sense of the Organization and effort.
Well then, ask for a rule sheet, or at least their stance. Rules are rules. Stances can be open for interpretation. The blind idiots who think all WC are bad certainly think so...
ANY frogs for sale in rooms other than the paid/show table room is usually VERY against almost all show rules I've read. And certainly against the general air of most shows, especially one 'about the hobby'.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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You better tell your Fellow Chi-town-ian to start hitting the typewriter then....
He's "running" Frog Day 2012 Chicago, right ?
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I'm sure there will be written rules for next year.
I'm also sure there was either something in writing stating this year's frog Day policy on WCs or they were simply acceptable to bring. As a vendor Phil, you can just easliy ask Matt, or before next years show ask Chris Miller.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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RichFrye Wrote:I'm sure there will be written rules for next year.
I'm also sure there was either something in writing stating this year's frog Day policy on WCs or they were simply acceptable to bring.
So now you are assuming:
1. There was a policy of some kind in place, with regards to WC animals
and if there WASN'T....
2. Then it is to be assumed that ALL WC stuff was ok to sell ect ?
I think we need to tighten up the WC / CB polices and put stuff on paper. If you happen to locate a printed / text / written policy for the 2011 show, please post it here.
I didn't think I needed to Meet with Matt on a WC policy as I did not have WC animals to offer....
I realize it's not my barbecue and I am ok with WC stuff. I'll still attend a Frog Day either way
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Holy crap Phil. I'm not assuming sh it . SURE means just that. Yes, I'm SURE that either there was a written policy stating zero Wc , OR I'm SURE WC are acceptable to bring , unless otherwise stated. Yes, I'm SURE of it.
I DON'T ASSUME that if something is NOT written down it goes against policy. I'm not a mind reader or an assumptive person. There is NOTHING written against WCs at their site BTW. Was there anything against them in your vendor pack?
YOU started this thread with so and so might have had such and such and they may have been WC and there MAY be a WC policy...if you really want to know the rule or lack there-of, freakin' simply ask the guy who ran it. A simple email. Takes less time than starting a whole thread , actually.
There are some who feel keeping 100 pairs of tincs in 10 gallon tanks for the rest of their cramped sucky lives is far worse than anything happening with the majority of dart WCs today. That 10 gallon puppy mill breeder was 'teaching' newbies @ FrogDay how to get started in the hobby. Pretty messed up 'teacher' and starting point if you ask me.
Philsuma Wrote:RichFrye Wrote:I'm sure there will be written rules for next year.
I'm also sure there was either something in writing stating this year's frog Day policy on WCs or they were simply acceptable to bring.
So now you are assuming:
1. There was a policy of some kind in place, with regards to WC animals
and if there WASN'T....
2. Then it is to be assumed that ALL WC stuff was ok to sell ect ?
I think we need to tighten up the WC / CB polices and put stuff on paper. If you happen to locate a printed / text / written policy for the 2011 show, please post it here.
I didn't think I needed to Meet with Matt on a WC policy as I did not have WC animals to offer....
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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I guess I am hearkening back to IAD days, when I think about 100% CB only policies. Do you remember hearing about how Marcus's pumilio (and there were a lot) were denied entry into the event ?
I go to all the Shows, I buy WC animals and constantly work to promote those importers who are trying to better the hobby and take above average care of their imports, but I am all for having a show or 2 a year, where there are only CB animals allowed.
Does that make sense ?
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Philsuma Wrote:I guess I am hearkening back to IAD days, when I think about 100% CB only policies. Do you remember hearing about how Marcus's pumilio (and there were a lot) were denied entry into the event ?
I go to all the Shows, I buy WC animals and constantly work to promote those importers who are trying to better the hobby and take above average care of their imports, but I am all for having a show or 2 a year, where there are only CB animals allowed.
Does that make sense ?
Yes, I heard /read that Marcus could not bring his WC pumilio to the show. WC, not farm raised...one shows policy.
There are at least two ways to 'look at' WC and shows. One is policy/rules, the other , ethics. These often have very little to do with each other.
If you really want to know Frog Day policy , ask, it's simple.
If you want to talk ethics, then each case if different. To you Phil, you actually think certain importers are "trying to better the hobby", where I know they are trying to better their financial situation. Whoring out best guesses is absolutely destroying the hobby. The best whore is still a whore. You needn't support them. It does NOT make sense when there are CB alternatives. The most average hobbyist pum breeder takes better care than the very best importer.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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ok...lets get this back on track with Frog Day 2012 and it's polices regarding WC frogs. It's better to drop the WC 2011 Frog Day issue - it's over, done with.
I had hoped to meet Chris Miller at 2011 as I heard he was coming but then did not make it.
I will attend 2012 regardless of the WC policy and volunteer to help out with displaying a banner here as well as other advertising efforts. I'll also volunteer to help out at the Venue with whatever needs to be done.
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Unfortunately, I had to miss Frog Day to visit my Grandma who has moved to hospice care. She asked for me to visit one last time.
Please feel free to call me or email/pm me whenever you get the chance.
Philsuma Wrote:ok...lets get this back on track with Frog Day 2012 and it's polices regarding WC frogs. It's better to drop the WC 2011 Frog Day issue - it's over, done with.
I had hoped to meet Chris Miller at 2011 as I heard he was coming but then did not make it.
I will attend 2012 regardless of the WC policy and volunteer to help out with displaying a banner here as well as other advertising efforts. I'll also volunteer to help out at the Venue with whatever needs to be done.
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Chris,
Glad to see you made it. The registration - return email sometimes causes issues for some people.
Please PM me your PH # here on DD.
I'll give ya a shout.
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Chris Miller Wrote:Unfortunately, I had to miss Frog Day to visit my Grandma who has moved to hospice care. She asked for me to visit one last time.
Please feel free to call me or email/pm me whenever you get the chance.
It was great talking with you today Chris. I believe Frog Day 2012 is already in very good hands and I'm excited. Lets put a digital countdown on ALL the various websites / facebook pages, seriously 8)
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It was some male atelopus being offered. Haven't heard of any others.
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Personally I think you all need to butt out and mind your own business. You want to run a Frog Day you can run it any way you want. That said, wc animals at FD -were allowed early on (in the 1990's), but not since. There are rules and they are distributed to all vendors and the vendor sign an agreement. Rules may sometimes broken but not at the event or the person can be asked to leave. What people do in their motel/hotel rooms is beyond our ability of monitor, nor do we want to be frog police. As states on the web site "American Frog Day: Is an annual event focused on assisting scientific study and captive maintenance of Dendrobatid frogs and other amphibians through the exchange of knowledge, and the promotion of captive breeding and husbandry of these remarkable frogs (and other amphibians)." Frog Day supports conservation and we donate considerable amounts of money to it annually, but its not the focus of the event.
Best,
Chuck
Frog Day founder and I have put it on 12 times.
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Chris Miller Wrote:Unfortunately, I had to miss Frog Day to visit my Grandma who has moved to hospice care. She asked for me to visit one last time.
Please feel free to call me or email/pm me whenever you get the chance.
Sorry to hear this Chris, I just checked my Mother into hospice may 6. 19 days later....... its a rough thing to go through. 
"He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom" LaVey
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Guess I killed this thread. Still I would like to say the following:
I not angry - not at all. What's done is done and I'm not going to worry about it. It also wasn't my show this year and Matt or Chris or whomever runs the show can do what every they thinks best. What I didn't like was all the people assuming they knew what was best and, it seemed, trying to start trouble. I came off strong on purpose to try and stem people ranting and raving and not knowing the facts. Any of you could easily have asked Matt, Chris, or myself what up and we'd be glad to let them know.
When I started Frog Day it wasn't a cb only show. The hobby was to young and many of the frogs people worked with today weren't cb, many weren't even around. After about five years there seemed to be enough cb to cover most species. Still some wc were allowed if they weren't represented by cb animals - O. histrionicus for instance. The rules were always made plain to vendors and they signed a contract (or rules to abide by). Before I gave up running FD it had become a cb only show. I've never been to any other shows so I can't speak for them.
I can't speak to what happens outside the show. We can request, but we have no control. Some people will be jerks no matter what you do. I've always figured it was their problem and you can fool me once, but it won't happen a second time - your loss in the long run. But I would suggest if you see something wrong tell someone working for the show - let them know and they should try and fix it. That said I have full confidence in Matt and Christ - Matt's done an excellent job this year and in the past. Chris is still new but I don't have any doubt he'll do very well. Greg and Amanda have put on a couple FD's and done an excellent job. Kudos to them all. All in all I very, very happy with how's it gone. Hopefully it will continue.
Best,
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Hi Chuck,
No worries on your post(s) here. I didn't see anything harsh or out of line. I know you a little bit, as much as online posting allows and I'm glad you saw fit to add your opinions and information here.
I was very active at Frog Day 2011, in terms of meeting, greeting and schmoozing. I think I can honestly say that EVERYONE was very happy with the event and truly grateful to all the good work that Matt and company put into such a large and important effort.
I believe from the vibe of the "WC issue" and concerns, is basically confined to a single instance at a vendor table involving the general public and not a hotel or room issue. After getting more information from this very thread, in the way of PM's that, had I not started a thread labeled correctly - "WC frogs at Frog day", I never would have found out, I personally think it was a small-ish incident and not something that needs to be amped up and trumpeted. I also spoke with Chris and we discussed an actual policy about WC animals during his sponsored Frog Day 2012 in Chicago. Whatever policy he comes up - I'm o.k with, either way.
As far as starting this thread here on Dart Den.com - a Dart Frog Forum started in 2004, dedicated to every possibly issue that concerns or involves Dart Frogs......I hope you'll come to agree that it was germane to the mission statement and membership here.
Thanks for your time Chuck .I always appreciate and look forward to your postings. Here's to Frog Day 2012. I'll be there !
Phil
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