Field sweeping?

[Armson]

It was all the rage in the 90s. Does anyone still do it?

[Philsuma]

I think some people do it in warmer months. Nets and collection are a bit of a bitch and then theres always the worry about pesticides. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of the hobby even attempts it.

Meadow 'plankton'.

[Armson]

I am not sure how far back this goes but one of the big theories as to why the germans had such great frogs is because they did frequent field sweeps.

-Byron

[RichFrye]

I am not sure how far back this goes but one of the big theories as to why the germans had such great frogs is because they did frequent field sweeps.

-Byron

It's also one of the reasons for so many parasites in their collections.

[BluePumilio]

Ther's actually a lot o recent research showing the benefits of low parasite loads, stimulates the immune system and crowds out the bad ones.

I am not sure how far back this goes but one of the big theories as to why the germans had such great frogs is because they did frequent field sweeps.

-Byron

It's also one of the reasons for so many parasites in their collections.

[RichFrye]

Ther's actually a lot o recent research showing the benefits of low parasite loads, stimulates the immune system and crowds out the bad ones.

I am not sure how far back this goes but one of the big theories as to why the germans had such great frogs is because they did frequent field sweeps.

-Byron

It's also one of the reasons for so many parasites in their collections.

No, not in dart frogs, there is absolutely not a lot of research , nor published studies showing benefits of anything that by definition (Biology; An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.) contributes nothing.
What exact parasites in darts are we talking about ?

[BluePumilio]

Rich, dart frogs are not biologically different enough to not be different then every animal studied so far. In the past few years parasites have shown to have beneficial effects.

So, I'll stick with my statement of "a lot of research". They have the same components of an immune system as other animals, and the same basic biology.

Many parasites (but not all) have a beneficial place in animals, and until people come to that realization, they are only fooling themselves.

[RichFrye]

Rich, dart frogs are not biologically different enough to not be different then every animal studied so far. In the past few years parasites have shown to have beneficial effects.

Look up the effects of coccidia on dart frogs vs. other amphibians, as documented proof of how one parasite effects one amphibian in a different manner than other amphibians.
Yes, there are differences in how each and every frog will react to each and every parasite. Not surprising due to the huge range in species of frogs alone.

[RichFrye]

Holding one's breath for a 'good' dart parasite to be found...or more importantly , one good parasite that we know to infect darts, will result in lack of O2 to the brain.

[BluePumilio]

Rich, I really think you're going against the latest research in parasite-host benefits. It may seem unpopular to say, but it's true. Talk to any vet on the forefront of exotics research and they are coming to the same conclusion. I've had this discussion with several top tiered zoo vets now, and it seems every year the documentation is supporting it. You can agree that dart frogs are different then all the other known animals, but they aren't. They have the same sort of digestive and immune system, same building blocks, it is extremely doubtful they are that different to be affected differently.

Quarantine is still important, you still want to be worried about the "bad" parasites that will kill your frogs and potentially your entire collection. It's the same concept of good and bad bacteria.

[RichFrye]

Rich, I really think you're going against the latest research in parasite-host benifits. It may seem unpopular to say, but it's true. Talk to any vet on the forefront of exotics research and they are coming to the same conclusion. I've had this discussion with several top tiered zoo vets now, and it seems every year the documentation is supporting it. You can agree that dart frogs are different then all the other known animals, but they aren't. They have the same sort of digestive and immune system, same building blocks, it is extremely doubtful they are that different to be affected differently.

Quarantine is still important, you still want to be worried about the "bad" parasites that will kill your frogs and potentially your entire collection. It's the same concept of good and bad bacteria.

So, the point (besides my want for proper quarantine and your agreement) is that at some point in time we may find an infection which is good for our dart frogs?
To think it possible is fine. To expect it to happen, another thing all together.

Bottom line, those who would expect a good infection are usually the ones saying that we could be wiping out good infections with the bad. Or those who use the 'good parasite' scenario as an excuse to not use proper quarantine.
Well, we know for a fact what the bad infections have done, will do and are now doing, right now...we have no knowledge to go on with a yet to be found 'good' infection.

So, when I say that sweepings are a vectors for parasites, I am saying that is a negative thing.

[Armson]

Yes Yes, You 're both pretty.

But the question was does anyone still do this?
Has anyone seen a benefit?

I am trying to keep this to a scientific discussion.(I know, I know I have no room to try and stress a serious discussion)

So in the Reef/marine aquarium scene. Many angelfish forage on sponges in the wild. A huge problem is that in the hobby we are not providing enough of this for them. Now there are foods that you can buy with "today's sponge" added to it. But many angelfish died because this lack of information.


I want to see if this applies in anyway to dart frogs. If people have a higher rate of success with Histos because of field sweeps I want to know what is in those sweeps. (Histos was just an example)

I hope am getting my point across.

-Byron

[Philsuma]

I personally would use field sweepings if I was 100% sure of no pesticides - sprayed or airborne, in the vicinity.

[DianeCarter]

I believe the only person I've heard talk about using field sweepings here is Stu and Chaz--you guys here? Could you weigh in?

[Armson]

I personally would use field sweepings if I was 100% sure of no pesticides - sprayed or airborne, in the vicinity.

I would imagine this goes without being said.



In my backyard last year I notice a thistle bush covered in aphids. Now I wouldn't use anything from my back yard. However I am aware of a few "clean" sites that I could possible harvest these critters from.

Is anyone aware of any studies done on the nutrient load on particular feeder insects? I know teddy (tclipse) posted a study on different nutritional value of different springtails with spiders. I am wondering if anyone has seen or heard of anything like this with PDFs?

On DB sometime ago I had read that someone had a few Juv PDFs get loose in his yard. (he said he lived some place tropical) What was interesting about this questionable escape was that when he found some of the escaped frogs in his yard a few months later they were 2-3 times larger and healthier than their captive siblings....

I want to know why.


-Byron

[DianeCarter]

Byron, That is fascinating! I need to read on DB more often! (Sorry Phil!)
Of course the obvious answer is that in a tropical yard, the frogs were able to eat dozens of different wild insects, with much better nutrients than what we dust our ffs with! But, to prove this.......lots of time and money Some day, some university will do this, and we'll have our answer!
In the meantime, I am envisioning, down the road, sending an order to Josh's for 10 dozen wild field sweepings! Getting my little can in the mail, dusting with my vitamins, and tapping a dozen varied bugs into each viv..nice!!!!!!!!!!
Diane

[Armson]

Honestly, I could have read it here I really don't remember.
but I know I read it on a forum.


I prefer DB to this dump any way. At least over there they give you a tall horse to sit on.

Phil,
When are you going to start giving out horses?


-Byron

[RichFrye]

I'm quite sure there are still froggers who sweep here in the U.S.
And, if you can find a clean collection area
and if you also can ID good/vs. bad bugs,
and if you don't accidentally bring in things like , let's say drain moths or tape worms in crickets or coccidia riddled bugs...there's really nothing better than a varied live diet. If you can accomplish points 1 , 2 and 3 .

[Armson]

I am under no impression that this would be simple. I am simply trying to isolate some clean wild caught bugs that might assist in providing a healthy treat for some of my frogs.



And now for something completely different....

Rich,
Your stupid BJ male got out of the tank this morning. My wife called me frantically telling me that it was going across the floor. So she managed to put him back in his viv. Next time I order frogs from you I expect them to be better disciplined.

and in other news....

When misting your frogs in a hurry because you are late for work. Always check to make sure you have properly closed your viv.

-Byron

[RichFrye]

I am under no impression that this would be simple. I am simply trying to isolate some clean wild caught bugs that might assist in providing a healthy treat for some of my frogs.

Isos and springs are good easy bang for the bucks...some aphids as collected are good/easy too, termites, some ants, some gnats , spiders, spiderlings, spiderlings, spiders , etc. , etc.

And now for something completely different....

Rich,
Your stupid BJ male got out of the tank this morning. My wife called me frantically telling me that it was going across the floor. So she managed to put him back in his viv. Next time I order frogs from you I expect them to be better disciplined.

and in other news....

When misting your frogs in a hurry because you are late for work. Always check to make sure you have properly closed your viv.

-Byron

Byron,
as much as I appreciate both the nature and nurture side of husbandry I must say that said frog was on the 'not stupid' end of the spectrum.
Before leaving my pit of darkness your frog exhibited both good genes and good rearing to the point of not expecting an escape attempt.
I can only suggest a more wholesome environment and lower stress levels to help alleviate future walkabouts.