Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

[frogface]

Sally, they were losing weight. She has always been beefy but even the vet noted that she felt thin on exam. Since they were not pooping I cut back on their feeding so I don't know if it was that or illness. My concern was that I was packing them full of flies but their GI tract was swollen and not passing the feces. Since the treatment, they both appear to have put on weight. I'll find pics from when they were in treatment to compare to the ones I posted the other night.

Rich, they were treated with Ivermectin for possible parasites and metronidazole for possible protazoa. Actually, I am now recalling that on one fecal exam (this was one of several exams), there was an 'unknown protazoa' noted. Otherwise, the fecals have not shown anything particularly amiss. I'm not trying to say that their fecals showed there was nothing, but, rather that their fecals did not show that there was something. Also, the reports I get from them is 'fecal was negative.' They don't go into specifics but have gone on to explain that there was nothing that needed immediate treatment but lets try Ivermectin in case we missed something, and metronidazole should address that random protazoa and GI problems.' etc. That is not a direct quote, btw. I hope I'm making sense. I'm very much a lay person and they speak to me as such.

Tonight I found egg scattered around the tank. I'm guessing these aren't fertilized. Especially since he's sitting on her back doing the 'egg watering' and whatever else he does, rather than on any actual eggs, lol. I'm glad she's getting them out. She was quite fat and gravid when they fell ill and since then has been pumped full of meds.

[frogface]

I am becoming concerned that in the vet's effort to dumb things down for me, vital information is being lost. Here is part of an email correspondence we had. Q is my question and A is the answer:

Q: This is a breeding pair but I do not want to pass sick froglets on to other people. Would the froglets of this pair be considered safe now that the parents have been treated with ponazuril?

A: For most parasites the answer would be yes, but for this I'm not sure if anyone can tell you definitively. I would like to think so, especially since you were so careful about hygiene and preventing reinfection during the treatment period. However I'm not sure there is enough data on ponazuril to say for sure. With the reading I did on coccidia it seems that with the old sulfa drugs that the frogs would improve and feel better but the coccidia would still be present. From what I read on some online forums the hope is that ponazuril will eliminate it. The best thing I can compare it to is bearded dragons. They get coccidia that is notoriously difficult to eliminate, and the sulfa drugs haven't been used for years because it doesn't even touch it, but ponazuril eliminates it great for them so I'm hoping the same will be true for frogs. We have some time to watch though and make sure the adults continue to do well I imagine before that is an issue.

[frogface]

Photos:

In their hospital containers. This was the first real poop I'd seen from them in months, and still, these were a little sketchy as far as tinc poops go. Day 3 of treatment:
male

female


A few days ago


Tonight with eggs thrown about. There are 3 in the water dish, one in front of her, one to the right side of them on the green leaf and 3 more on a leaf that is up near the top of the tank (not seen in this pic). He was sitting squarely on her back but when I opened the tank for the pic he slid down a bit. I don't think they'll be good but they will be culled either way.

[BcsTx]

Hun I test and QT every frog then do annual tests plus PCR for for coccidia and rana. New frogs are typically in QT for 3 months plus before putting in a new viv.
IMO runny poos and firm poos on a leaf do not "cut it." I would not sell frogs that could "potentially" ie coccidia is extremely easily spread, per current research sell "froglets" that could spread the disease into the hobby.
If you have buyers fine, hope you give a "huge" discount.

Just for clarity Beth, I believe you meant to say "PCR for chytrid and rana"

Kris, I probably missed it but I know another sign or symptom of coccidia is weight loss, judging from your picture of the pair.. this was not a problem! However I would be curious to know after your treatment if they put on more weight.

Rich, a question for you, surely there are other things that would cause loose feces besides parasites?

You are correct Sally, my bad.

[frogface]

Hun I test and QT every frog then do annual tests plus PCR for for coccidia and rana. New frogs are typically in QT for 3 months plus before putting in a new viv.
IMO runny poos and firm poos on a leaf do not "cut it." I would not sell frogs that could "potentially" ie coccidia is extremely easily spread, per current research sell "froglets" that could spread the disease into the hobby.
If you have buyers fine, hope you give a "huge" discount.

I've always appreciated how careful you are with your new acquisitions and would feel comfortable buying frogs from you. However, I don't see how your protocol rules out coccidia in your collection. From what I understand, coccidia can lay dormant for many years, if not the entire lifetime of the frog. My female was 2 years old, and my male one year old, before exhibiting any symptoms. And as I noted, both had 'clean' fecals prior (and during).

[frogface]

And another link. The links I post aren't supposed to prove a point one way or another. They are just to share info as it is passed to me. I've also got this discussion going on in email and on another board.

http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/23/3/430.full

[RichFrye]

And another link. The links I post aren't supposed to prove a point one way or another. They are just to share info as it is passed to me. I've also got this discussion going on in email and on another board.

http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/23/3/430.full

Could you please ask the person or people passing these write ups along to you what exactly they are passing them along to point out or prove?
I start to read them , hoping for relevant info only to end up wondering why I read the write up...
Cryptosporidium are different than coccidia, similar, but not the same. Like bullfrogs and bearded dragons are similar to dart frogs, in some ways, and yet still very different.
Is the point that maybe there will be better testing for coccidia in darts down the road? Or something totally different? I don't know. But I am also not a vet...

[RichFrye]

Hun I test and QT every frog then do annual tests plus PCR for for coccidia and rana. New frogs are typically in QT for 3 months plus before putting in a new viv.
IMO runny poos and firm poos on a leaf do not "cut it." I would not sell frogs that could "potentially" ie coccidia is extremely easily spread, per current research sell "froglets" that could spread the disease into the hobby.
If you have buyers fine, hope you give a "huge" discount.

I've always appreciated how careful you are with your new acquisitions and would feel comfortable buying frogs from you. However, I don't see how your protocol rules out coccidia in your collection. From what I understand, coccidia can lay dormant for many years, if not the entire lifetime of the frog. My female was 2 years old, and my male one year old, before exhibiting any symptoms. And as I noted, both had 'clean' fecals prior (and during).

Are you still going with the coccida theory then?
Clean fecals seem to be all your frogs have ever produced. And yet we still can not explain what was wrong...or what may eventually resurface, since coccidia never goes away.
Quite a bit of re-testing in the future is your best bet for these frogs and that's your plan , so I think we should wait and see. Being aware of the situation I am sure you are plenty careful not to cross contaminate other frogs.

[RichFrye]

I am becoming concerned that in the vet's effort to dumb things down for me, vital information is being lost. Here is part of an email correspondence we had. Q is my question and A is the answer:

Q: This is a breeding pair but I do not want to pass sick froglets on to other people. Would the froglets of this pair be considered safe now that the parents have been treated with ponazuril?

A: For most parasites the answer would be yes, but for this I'm not sure if anyone can tell you definitively. I would like to think so, especially since you were so careful about hygiene and preventing reinfection during the treatment period. However I'm not sure there is enough data on ponazuril to say for sure. With the reading I did on coccidia it seems that with the old sulfa drugs that the frogs would improve and feel better but the coccidia would still be present. From what I read on some online forums the hope is that ponazuril will eliminate it. The best thing I can compare it to is bearded dragons. They get coccidia that is notoriously difficult to eliminate, and the sulfa drugs haven't been used for years because it doesn't even touch it, but ponazuril eliminates it great for them so I'm hoping the same will be true for frogs. We have some time to watch though and make sure the adults continue to do well I imagine before that is an issue.

First, using the term "sick" implies symptomatic. You can have infected frogs that are not yet symptomatic.
The person answering your email is correct in saying there is not enough data to say using ponazuril definitively wipes clean your frogs of coccidia. Because the science now says that it does not . It does not cure coccidia, Per Dr. Wright et al.
I don't know what on line forums the person is referring to either.
Hope is one thing, the one report I read here on the beardies mentions " coccidia free" ...and yet we know that had not been proven. And that's once again for a species not related to darts.
So, we are right back to ground zero. No cure and that includes ponazuril.
In the beginning of this you mention the fact that your vet " she hangs with Dr. Wright". Maybe a consult with him would clear things up some?

[RichFrye]

... We have some time to watch though and make sure the adults continue to do well I imagine before that is an issue.

It would seem your vet does not know this is a breeding pair and they are at this moment trying to breed.

[frogface]

Sorry I lost track of this. Let's see:

Are you still going with the coccida theory then?
Clean fecals seem to be all your frogs have ever produced. And yet we still can not explain what was wrong...or what may eventually resurface, since coccidia never goes away.
Quite a bit of re-testing in the future is your best bet for these frogs and that's your plan , so I think we should wait and see. Being aware of the situation I am sure you are plenty careful not to cross contaminate other frogs.

I go with the theory of coccidia only because the metronidazole did not help them but the ponazuril did. Since they have not been necropsied and their fecals did not show coccidia, I guess I don't know for sure.

It would seem your vet does not know this is a breeding pair and they are at this moment trying to breed.

she does/did know they are a breeding pair. However, I had talked to her about keeping them separated for a bit while they put weight back on. Since they weren't breeding at first, I delayed that. Now they are separate because they are breeding. I've culled a few eggs but they snuck some past me and I have 3 tads.


eta:

First, using the term "sick" implies symptomatic. You can have infected frogs that are not yet symptomatic.

I realize this. That's why I've asked how anyone knows if their frogs have coccidia.

She is at a conference this week. I'm hoping she's with Dr Wright and talking to him about it but I don't know if my frogs are in the forefront of her thoughts.

I took some videos of them a few days ago. They are doing very well and look very healthy. I also got the results for a fecal sample I took in today. I asked that they specifically look for any signs of coccidia. They said there were no signs of coccidia and the fecal was 'absolutely clean.'

Here are the vids:
Female eating
http://youtu.be/LlBUApyG-Kk

Male eating
http://youtu.be/RE0Ze6z9Qs4

Female laying eggs
http://youtu.be/4Ub6fI_98x4

Male watering eggs
http://youtu.be/FosdeIR8vuU

[frogface]

Rich, I want to say that I don't disagree with you. I suspect you are probably correct. I'm wondering though, if it matters. We could all have asymptomatic frogs in our collections with coccidia and likely most of us do have some.

[RichFrye]

... I'm wondering though, if it matters. We could all have asymptomatic frogs in our collections with coccidia and likely most of us do have some.

YES! It matters. Please do not fall into the " we could all have coccidia because ya can't tell for sure until they are dead."
Wrong. You need to look at it like this, from those with experience with it on a number of levels.

ALL vets look for coccidia in poop because chances are if your dog, frog, bullfrog, bulldog , cat , rat or bat have coccidia, it's a very good chance that at some point they will shed coccidia in their poop. If they are symptomatic and showing known effects of coccidia and they have coccidia it's a very , very good chance you will find coccidia in the infected frog's poop.
The argument that a frog has gone through a number of series of fecals and has never shown any signs of coccidia and may go through it's whole life infected yet never shedding coccidia is possible. And so is my chance of hitting the Powerball...if I ever played the stupid tax.

[frogface]

The argument that a frog has gone through a number of series of fecals and has never shown any signs of coccidia and may go through it's whole life infected yet never shedding coccidia is possible. And so is my chance of hitting the Powerball...if I ever played the stupid tax.

How many coccidia free fecals do I need before I declare them to not have coccidia? They had 3 prior to treatment and 1 so far, after treatment.

[RichFrye]

From how many different vets?
Because if someone who knows what coccidia looks like has told you that they have been fully coccidia free in many/all fecals during which time the frogs were symptomatic , either your frogs did not have coccidia as a cause for these concerns or the tester/s are not able to sample and ID coccidia.

I personally don't see another option when a coccidia positive frog which is showing symptoms of coccidia infection tests clean many times.
Remember, digestive tract was one of the noted issues. No coccidia in the digestive tract...

[frogface]

From how many different vets?
Because if someone who knows what coccidia looks like has told you that they have been fully coccidia free in many/all fecals during which time the frogs were symptomatic , either your frogs did not have coccidia or the tester/s are not able to sample and ID coccidia.

I personally don't see another option when a coccidia positive frog which is showing symptoms of coccidia infection tests clean many times.

Point taken. I've been taking my samples to the vet. Usually a tech does it and once the vet did. I'll take the next one to the State Veterinary Diagnostic and Pathology lab.
edit:

Remember, digestive tract was one of the noted issues. No coccidia in the digestive tract...

Very good point.

[frogface]

LMAO! Turns out that my frogs WERE a topic of conversation at the vet conference last week. She got my email while she was there. Pretty much the same update as I posted here, with the vids. So, she and Dr Wright talked about it and her email back to me was very encouraging. I feel strange posting her words without consent so I've sent back an email asking if I can bring it here.

Stay tuned


edit: As to the new title, just so there's no confusion, these frogs have never tested positive for coccidia 8)

[frogface]

Until I get the OK to copy/paste the whole email, I have to tell you this. Per my vet, referring to Dr Wright, she said he had "absolutely no qualms about you selling any babies that came from these guys"

[frogface]

I got the OK so here it is:

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you! I was actually at the ARAV conference this week, so was not checking email very frequently, but when I got your message I asked the experts! I talked to Kevin Wright and asked if he felt he had ever eliminated coccidia with any of the newer meds. If you remember, the older sulfa drugs we used to use for coccidia is what never really eliminated them. He told me that if you treat for 30-40 days with ponazuril, he feels like he has eliminated them, but of course it's hard to prove it when you can hardly ever find it on a fecal. There is a fancy PCR test at University of Florida that we can use if you want but it's probably at least $100-150 I'd have to check (PCR if you are unfamiliar checks for DNA of an organism). Using that test he believes he's eliminated it in some frogs, but with that long treatment protocol. He asked if yours had clinical signs that resolved with meds and when I told him yes, he felt that was a really good sign that we've gotten rid of it. He had absolutely no qualms about you selling any babies that came from these guys, so that made me feel good, but you wouldn't want to sell these adults without full disclosure. He did suggest that maybe every 3-4 months or so we may want to treat the adults again like we did before just so that if there are any coccidia present, we can keep them under control and from causing problems again. He told me he'd been doing that in some collections and also in some bearded dragons (where coccidia can be a big problem) and it's been working really well for him, so that may not be a bad idea.

[frogface]

She's looking into that PCR test for me. I'll keep you posted.