Dart Den

Philsuma Wrote:lets keep it civil here, please.

Mark P. was on DD earlier today and I'm sure he's not in the best of moods after hearing about all the same species "EU" imports hitting the U.S lately. He's probably busy and he may not like to 'engage' with the interweb crowd and I don't hold that against him whatsoever.

Mark's already stated what he knows, and suggests contacting the project for more info. Luis wrote up some good info and I addressed the points I find relevant.
Seems everything past that is just personal frustration. But I'm more than willing to debate what someone thinks I have digested incorrectly , as long as personal slams like 'getting the vast majority of my frogs given to me' should stop now before I reciprocate. And I'm all about reciprocity.

Philsuma Wrote:...well...there goes the 'pics only" idea.....

I didn't say pics only. Discussion is perfectly fine. I just didn't want anymore re-hashing of the same stuff over and over again.

Rich, you are right, I shouldn't have attacked you. I apologize for that.

When I have more free time (it's finals week) I will go through and take the time to answer all of your questions the best I can with all the data that has been provided by Mark and Wikiri.

thedude Wrote:

Philsuma Wrote:...well...there goes the 'pics only" idea.....

I didn't say pics only. Discussion is perfectly fine. I just didn't want anymore re-hashing of the same stuff over and over again.

Rich, you are right, I shouldn't have attacked you. I apologize for that.

When I have more free time (it's finals week) I will go through and take the time to answer all of your questions the best I can with all the data that has been provided by Mark and Wikiri.

No problem.
And I promise not to make a jab about having to wait for your post, no life, higher than mighty [sic] (who's Mighty?) etc. Take your time.

Adam thanks for posting pictures. I am now wiping the drool off my iPad till I get my group.

So Rich, if there are 100 little inbred pockets of frogs being segregated even more from human intervention(development, roads, etc. and becoming more inbred) and they were all a contigious group 100 years ago and all interbred, would you want them broke up into 100 populations now? As I see it there are not enough hobbyists to keep all the different "morphs" we have now w/ enough diversity. Personally I'm a lumper If we had leopard frogs that we were breeding, I could collect some from here and some 30 miles away at my moms and some from PA over 100 miles away and people would have no problem because they LOOK identical. And 100's of years ago there was gene flow between all these populations. The problems w/ outbreeding come from adaption to the wild, not our vivs.

aaronsfrogfarm Wrote:So Rich, if there are 100 little inbred pockets of frogs being segregated even more from human intervention(development, roads, etc. and becoming more inbred) and they were all a contigious group 100 years ago and all interbred, would you want them broke up into 100 populations now? As I see it there are not enough hobbyists to keep all the different "morphs" we have now w/ enough diversity. Personally I'm a lumper If we had leopard frogs that we were breeding, I could collect some from here and some 30 miles away at my moms and some from PA over 100 miles away and people would have no problem because they LOOK identical. And 100's of years ago there was gene flow between all these populations. The problems w/ outbreeding come from adaption to the wild, not our vivs.

...or, what has happened (no genetic drift from outside , other breeding populationS) with these pockets would be that THEY are the ones who have NOT been humanly manipulated , but rather show the true breeding popualtiuonS in the HUGE reserve, in their own islands, as happens with all the other known dart populationS.

This is why the testing end is nice, before we get and breed the frogs.

Rich, what you fail to either accept or understand, or what we have failed to get across is that after years of observation at Otokiki by Ecuadorian biologists it has been determined that it is one population. 143 acres of what is now essentially a forest island is not a huge reserve by any stretch. You can quite quickly walk from one side of the Otokiki to the other and observe the same curiously variable frogs throughout. I think Luis provided a fantastic summary and an interesting prelude to what will hopefully be some key studies to illuminate the mechanisms behind or driving the evolution of color in poison frogs. Interestingly, as Luis made clear, the Otokiki population (single) will be integral to this because of its high degree of naturally occurring variation.

Interestingly, Dutch Rana just imported a new population of tinctorius from the Northern bakhius mountains that shows an interesting degree of variation as well. Given not the same as at Otokiki, but the point is these things are not always as black and white as we would often like to think.

I don't have anything else to add, and am about to head out to South America so wont be able to contribute further.
And to be clear. This is WIKIRI's work, not Understory. We are honored to be involved with an effort such as theirs, but can
take no further credit. If the hobby is supportive WIKIRI is capable of much more.

MPepper Wrote:Rich, what you fail to either accept or understand, or what we have failed to get across is that after years of observation at Otokiki by Ecuadorian biologists it has been determined that it is one population.

I have read the word population (example...one population of polymorphic mainland Panama pumilio...) and understand what it means Mark. Are you saying that the whole of Otokiki has been determined to be

one , sole, whole contiguous breeding population?

Because that is certainly not what I have read from what has been cited here. And it is indeed perplexing [sic] to attempt to understand how more solid bodies 'x' on one end, pockets here or there, and huge polymorphism in other areas still in the one , lone, contiguous , breeding population could possibly happen without lots of outside intervention.

The genetic testing to be done will tell far more accurately than observation alone. I look forward to the test results.

Rich, as Mark has said (and it's on Wikiri's site) the entire reserve is only about 140 acres. Are you telling me that gene flow isn't occurring throughout this small area? I can't think of anywhere in the world where you could find 2 distinct populations with no interbreeding separated in just 140 acres. Unless of course there is a large river dividing them, which there isn't. And Mark said you can walk from one end to the other relatively easily, so there must not be much in the way of barriers.

RichFrye Wrote:I have read the word population (example...one population of polymorphic mainland Panama pumilio...) and understand what it means Mark. Are you saying that the whole of Otokiki has been determined to be

one , sole, whole contiguous breeding population?

Because that is certainly not what I have read from what has been cited here. And it is indeed perplexing [sic] to attempt to understand how more solid bodies 'x' on one end, pockets here or there, and huge polymorphism in other areas still in the one , lone, contiguous , breeding population could possibly happen without lots of outside intervention.

The genetic testing to be done will tell far more accurately than observation alone. I look forward to the test results.

MPepper Wrote:Rich, what you fail to either accept or understand, or what we have failed to get across is that after years of observation at Otokiki by Ecuadorian biologists it has been determined that it is one population. 143 acres of what is now essentially a forest island is not a huge reserve by any stretch. You can quite quickly walk from one side of the Otokiki to the other and observe the same curiously variable frogs throughout.

Rich, please see what Mark said above in the last sentance. "and observe the same curiously variable frogs throughout."

JJuchems Wrote:Adam thanks for posting pictures. I am now wiping the drool off my iPad till I get my group.

When you get them and see what they look like, you will realize my photos are useless for showing how amazing these frogs are As I've said before they look fake. It's amazing how an animal can look like this.

thedude Wrote:Rich, as Mark has said (and it's on Wikiri's site) the entire reserve is only about 140 acres. Are you telling me that gene flow isn't occurring throughout this small area? I can't think of anywhere in the world where you could find 2 distinct populations with no interbreeding separated in just 140 acres. Unless of course there is a large river dividing them, which there isn't. And Mark said you can walk from one end to the other relatively easily, so there must not be much in the way of barriers.

RichFrye Wrote:I have read the word population (example...one population of polymorphic mainland Panama pumilio...) and understand what it means Mark. Are you saying that the whole of Otokiki has been determined to be

one , sole, whole contiguous breeding population?

Because that is certainly not what I have read from what has been cited here. And it is indeed perplexing [sic] to attempt to understand how more solid bodies 'x' on one end, pockets here or there, and huge polymorphism in other areas still in the one , lone, contiguous , breeding population could possibly happen without lots of outside intervention.

The genetic testing to be done will tell far more accurately than observation alone. I look forward to the test results.

MPepper Wrote:Rich, what you fail to either accept or understand, or what we have failed to get across is that after years of observation at Otokiki by Ecuadorian biologists it has been determined that it is one population. 143 acres of what is now essentially a forest island is not a huge reserve by any stretch. You can quite quickly walk from one side of the Otokiki to the other and observe the same curiously variable frogs throughout.

Rich, please see what Mark said above in the last sentance. "and observe the same curiously variable frogs throughout."

At this point I think we are all spinning our wheels.
I very much look forward to the testing results , as any way you look at it this is a very interesting project and they are great frogs at a great price. I wish all involved with the project the best.

I just got mine on Thursday.
really happy with what i got.
they are very bold and do not seem to hide at all. thought i heard a bit of calling but it could have been another tank..
really like the colors:

Nice Mike ! Beautiful.

thanks phil
the Azureus are still doing great - you were right - they breed like crazy

neko121 Wrote:I just got mine on Thursday.
really happy with what i got.
they are very bold and do not seem to hide at all. thought i heard a bit of calling but it could have been another tank..
really like the colors:

those are amazing!!! Im soo glad theyre in and many are getting a shot at them... :mrgreen:

Congrats mike!!! Those are beautiful!!!

Let's seem em folks....post em up for those of us that don't got em' !

I think the next shipment of them is due in around September.

Adam would it be ok to ask a few questions,about how things are going with the paru over there. Do you guys have any ideas about when this morph reaches sexual maturity? Have any of you seen any confirmed calling yet? I would expect it will be way to early for any breeding activity.
thankyou in advance,i hope this isn't too offtopic,thankyou for the pics
regards

Stu