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Good post ^...lots of information that I agree with, too.
I don't think my personal line has "softened" and as a forum owner, I'm not pandering for more members. I honestly think that everyone should be able to voice their opinion. The old adage "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death, your right to bla bla"... Still holds true. I actually have this idea that some guys, like Jellyman, may actually have come around and even changed their ideals - that mixing should not be spread around the hobby to every single person who wants to engage in it.
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Swampfox Wrote:I absolutely hate myself for getting drawn into this, but this topic is apparently my achilles heel. Damn you, Phil. Kidding of course...kind of.
Also, before I start, I just wanted to say that I appreciate the civility of the discussion here thus far. I think your approach is the correct one and admire the effort. I am in no way trying to detract from that. My words may betray the passion I have about the subject, but they are certainly being delivered in an even tone without intended offense to anyone.
That said, I find the soft line that is being taken here a bit disappointing. It would be nice to see a group of hobbyists on these forums band together and say, "if you mix, you are not welcome here." Perhaps that runs the risk of forcing those who mix to be less than honest about it, and I hear the argument you are making, but I cannot help feel that is where such froggers belong. They should be marginalized and kept on the fringes lest passive disinterest be taken for acceptance. Every new hobbyist should have the message drilled into their heads. You cross breed morphs, you get the forum boot. All the animals in their collections are no longer viable. Otherwise, as someone else stated earlier, this is a losing battle that attrition alone will dictate.
In my mind, there is absolutely no justifiable reason to do this in the first place. We are not dealing with an animal that is naturally occurring in a single, drab, nominant morph such as many species of reptiles kept by hobbyists. Darts are already available in nearly limitless variety of form, behavior, and difficulty. You will not create something that looks any better than the original morphs by crossing so why bother? Worse still, we are not dealing with stable wild populations of animals as in most other "designer morph" hobbies. Darts are almost all threatened, some critically and some even outright extinct in their natural ranges. To waste a precious resource on some idiotic experiment is pointless. Finally, on the motivation of mixing before I move on, I like to use a simplistic art example. When you start with a brown animal, such as a fat tailed gecko or bearded dragon, line breeding to isolate the combinate colors can enhance the beauty of the animal. Can anyone tell me what happens when you combine all the colors of the rainbow? You get friggin brown. Every. Friggin. Time.
Next, I think it would be productive to address what we as a community can do about known cross-breeders like Redeyetroyfrog and Richard L. In my local frogger community we keep a list of folks who venture into this arena. People on the list get zero support from our group. No supply purchases or sales, no frogs sold or bought, not even PM's returned. I have not explored if this forum has such a feature, but on the "other side" we block their usernames so as not to even be forced to see posts made. Furthermore, if given the opportunity, we would cull every animal in their possession. I know that might sound dramatic or even a bit aggressive, but you have to understand how quickly this can ruin everything we as a hobby work for (or at least some of us I suppose). In bloodlines of azureus (where the nominant is very dominant genetically) a single crossbreed with an oyapok or new river can enter the breeding stock with virtually no distinguishing characteristics. Then it is game over. The hobby will circulate them and we can never determine genetic purity again. Auratus is my absolute favorite dart. I cannot tell you how many "turquoise" auratus I have seen offered that are deliberate crosses of known locale panamanian blue and black with Costa Rican green and black. I have even heard arguments that such crosses are naturally occurring. Map. Fail.
Other's have stated the myriad reason not to cross so I will not re-hash any more. I just thought it might be productive to introduce thoughts on what should/could be done by our community. I honestly think mixed tanks are a total blessing in disguise. The typical idiot 12 year old running them has a 99% chance to kill all of their frogs before any risk of crossbreeds can be achieved. At least they can be forgiven for ignorance and lack of experience. Those who cross on purpose...I just don't know what to say. I hope your houses lose power in the dead of summer or winter, while you are on vacation without a generator. Upon discovering your collection wiped out, I hope the financial burden and sadness at your loss drives you from the hobby permanently.
I admit I had trouble making it through that whole post, so let me know if I don't cover something in my reply.
I also hate being drawn into this , and we put up a huge 'we members do not support the mixing of locales or hybrids' , on Dart Frogz , so that's already been done. And I stand by the sentiment, probably stronger than anyone you know.
I'll give you the facts as have been discussed both in public and behind the scenes, by experts and professionals.
Let me start by saying if there is one single person on this continent who I'd prefer disagreeing with , and usually do, it's Richard Lynch aka "Woodsman", . That said I agree with facts in this hobby.
The mixing of "Giant Orange" tincs and "Regina" tincs is the one and only mix I can say is valid and helpful to the hobby.
After years and MANY conversations with importers and exporters (back then there were FAR, FAR fewer dart frog importers and exporters and locales and species and bullshit artists) it is much accepted these two named tincs are one and the same, divided once to command more $$$$.
If anyone wished to not mix those specific tincs, that's most likely OK, for now, but the mixing of same breeding population frogs is always a plus.
If anyone thinks I'd cross breeding populations read any of my many thousands of posts over the past ten year.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Who are the "experts and professionals" that have weighed in on the Reg / G.O issues ?
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Philsuma Wrote:Who are the "experts and professionals" that have weighed in on the Reg / G.O issues ? The EU guys and U.S. guys who did the collecting, importing and exporting.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Are they available ? Able to be contacted with questions ?
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Philsuma Wrote:Are they available ? Able to be contacted with questions ?
Some are. But it will take someone going through a bunch of threads on a bunch of forums and mailing lists and News Letters to dig out names, if you want names and don't know who to contact. I'm not publically providing any names of people in this hobby to be contacted.
I no longer work with tincs. I am just providing breeding info as I would personally breed them going by info from people I trust. Info I find helpfull to the hobby.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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I see. I guess we each have to place credibility in everything related to this hobby, on our own. More niche hobbies are like this than not I guess, right or wrong. I question the printed word all the time...but that's just me.
I have personally judged Chris van der Lingen to have been an expert on pumilio, for example - based on his book and personal communications with American hobbyists that visited him. I do not know anyone that I could say the same about, Tinctorious-wise.
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Just getting on my to read list.
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I echo Rich's sentiment on the GO/Regina info, Mark Pepper had talked extensively to one of the originators and I have through the years heard from original importers as well as several Europeans all echoing the same thing, separated here because of $$ maybe but there called something else than they were here, 2 names, same frog though. There are many that will NEVER put these 2 together, I have no problem with that but they have been around a decent amount of time with as far as I know no WC genetics hitting the states sans a pair or 2 of WC GO years ago from the Serpents Egg. I think that would mean potential for genetic bottleneck would be a reality for this morph.
There is no room for cross breeding or hybridizing period, none at all. I though have taken the stance that if someone wants to keep a fish tank full of frogs to look at like an aquarium that is their right. I knew a lady here in Sarasota that had a 150 gallon former reef that she kept 5 different species in for several years, she pulled no eggs and just enjoyed her display. She called me one day, said she was done and wanted me to remove all of the frogs and help her break it down which I did, all of the frogs came out nice and fat and seemingly healthy, she said 3 or 4 frogs total had disappeared over the years and remarkably most of the species stayed together in areas of the tank....I wish I had seen it set up but other than talking to her on the phone I never went over until she wanted it broken down. I sent all the frogs off to a friend who bred at least one of the groups. She had in the tank solid orange Galacs, G&B Auratus, Cobalt Tincs, Casti's and a trio of RFB Basti's no less. She never asked my advice in keeping these frogs together, she just did it, when I asked if she ever got babies she told me she saw eggs several times but never took them out as she wanted no part in rearing tadpoles.
I have thought several times about making 1 of my bigger tanks into a 2 species viv but just can't pull the trigger, when I see a pair of Pums in a 100 gallon tank and think man they are happy but they could use more room there is no way I could throw 2 species in anything we would call a normal house size viv.....a whole room sure but short of that we would definitely be doing our frogs a disservice. A 2' or 3' or 4' glass box is just not big enough for more than 1 species.
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Thanks Mark these frogs are getting to be breeding age and it looks like 1.3, it's not like a secret society the only reason that I would ask Richard if and when they do produce offspring what should be done is because he gave me the frogs and I would be more then willing to give some offspring away with the understanding of exactly what the frogs are to avoid any confusion, I would hope that is acceptable.
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I could never say the 'no stone is left un-turned' or this thread is the end-all-be-all....
But it's gotta be close.
DD welcomes discussion on this or any topic.
If you read this thread and still have questions....have at it hoss. Ask away.
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I agree with mixing the GO's and Reginas, but they aren't the only one's that should be mixed. The wide banded and narrow banded aurotaenia should as well. They were split up when they hit the states but are from the same population and are kept together in Europe.
Adam Hess
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If I think about hybridizing three names come to mind, BrianWI, Jellyman, and now SmallScaleDan. Ever notice how none of them have any pics of setups, vivs, frogs, tads, anything really. No cred goes a long long way doesn't it?
Jon
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Jell / Bryan certainly has a full tank shot / build thread here with pics. The cool part about it, is that he eventually realized it was poorly designed and promptly fixed it / made a bigger tank, due in part to the forums. The mixed species part obviously still remains, but I'd like to think the forums helped with some of the serious design flaws.
On Hybrids (cliff notes).
1. All Hybrids produced = More imports and hurts wild frog populations
2. Hybrids confined to one's home = not so bad
3. Hybrids that get transferred all around the country 'willy nilly' = Mislabeled and most likely falsified frogs (see #1 above)
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I stand corrected, I haven't seen Jelly's build thread.
Jon
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1. All Hybrids produced = More imports and hurts wild frog populations
Not actually needed, hence more education should be provided.
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Brian, there is plenty of education here. Use the search function, then read why hybridizing and cross-breeding is unacceptable.
Jon
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You missed one rusty. Redeyedtroyfrog...
Didn't know about smallscaledan. Thanks for the heads up.
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Eric, I know about Troy's past transgressions. I don't think he's producing anymore hybrids. IMO he's seen the errors of his ways and he's truly trying to do the right thing and put all that stuff behind him. Just my opinion.
Jon
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