Poll - Wild Caught Dart Frogs. Thoughts ?

[cbreon]

Five years ('04-'08) divided by 15k = 3k per year. Sounds about right to me.

Couple some deforestation and habitat loss with a couple hundred frogs being harvested from a given population at one time and it seems like it could be bad...

It seems that a harvest of ~500 from the robalo might just be the end of them...

[RichFrye]

Five years ('04-'08) divided by 15k = 3k per year. Sounds about right to me.

Couple some deforestation and habitat loss with a couple hundred frogs being harvested from a given population at one time and it seems like it could be bad...

It seems that a harvest of ~500 from the robalo might just be the end of them...

Yes, bad news. I even doubt 500 could be found from one sole breeding population.

[Philsuma]

I'd be really worried about the Island populations.

[cbreon]

I'd be really worried about the Island populations.

Yeah, and how many have been taken from Escudos, seems like a lot...~500+ over the last couple years?

[turningdoc]

I admire the concerns in this thread, but blaming hobbyists for a decline in native populations seems short-sighted. If Panama and it's neighbors are bent on deforestation and plundering their natural resources, even a few thousand exports are a drop in the bucket. Has their ever been an effort to repopulate a single population? Not that I know of. Why? Because the host governments in general do not care. Oddly, captivity may become these species last chance.

[RichFrye]

I admire the concerns in this thread, but blaming hobbyists for a decline in native populations seems short-sighted. If Panama and it's neighbors are bent on deforestation and plundering their natural resources, even a few thousand exports are a drop in the bucket. Has their ever been an effort to repopulate a single population? Not that I know of. Why? Because the host governments in general do not care. Oddly, captivity may become these species last chance.

Absolutely, it's far from average hobbyists' fault. Some hobbyists contribute to decline, but ultimately it's Panama's responsibility and their fault.

[turningdoc]

Have any long-timers w contacts in Panama ever inquired as to development of preservation areas or cooperatives efforts like repopulation programs or are they ( the Panamanians) somewhat unapproachable?

[RichFrye]

Have any long-timers w contacts in Panama ever inquired as to development of preservation areas or cooperatives efforts like repopulation programs or are they ( the Panamanians) somewhat unapproachable?

Just today, and plenty of times in the past I have suggested that any money spent by us in Panama for such programs should be considered donations.

[tritium]

I admire the concerns in this thread, but blaming hobbyists for a decline in native populations seems short-sighted. If Panama and it's neighbors are bent on deforestation and plundering their natural resources, even a few thousand exports are a drop in the bucket. Has their ever been an effort to repopulate a single population? Not that I know of. Why? Because the host governments in general do not care. Oddly, captivity may become these species last chance.

Absolutely, it's far from average hobbyists' fault. Some hobbyists contribute to decline, but ultimately it's Panama's responsibility and their fault.

Absolutely not. That's like saying its ok to shoot polar bears because the ice caps are melting anyway. The responsibility falls on us, the ones who care the most about these animals, to conserve them in the wild. It doesn't matter if their habitat might be gone in 15 years, if you buy a frog that was collected from a wild population, and that population subsequently crashes, then YOU are the problem. The "blame it on panama" attitude is just plain lazy

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[RichFrye]

I admire the concerns in this thread, but blaming hobbyists for a decline in native populations seems short-sighted. If Panama and it's neighbors are bent on deforestation and plundering their natural resources, even a few thousand exports are a drop in the bucket. Has their ever been an effort to repopulate a single population? Not that I know of. Why? Because the host governments in general do not care. Oddly, captivity may become these species last chance.

Absolutely, it's far from average hobbyists' fault. Some hobbyists contribute to decline, but ultimately it's Panama's responsibility and their fault.

Absolutely not. That's like saying its ok to shoot polar bears because the ice caps are melting anyway. The responsibility falls on us, the ones who care the most about these animals, to conserve them in the wild. It doesn't matter if their habitat might be gone in 15 years, if you buy a frog that was collected from a wild population, and that population subsequently crashes, then YOU are the problem. The "blame it on panama" attitude is just plain lazy

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Do you own any darts? I know you had some, and have some coming, so where exactly do you think the founding stock came from? Do you personally know the scientific status of the founding stock from the wild? In your words it's your responsibility to know.
I'm far from a lazy person.
If I buy a frog from Panama and 15 years down the line I have the only representative of that locale and Panama deforested that locale 15 years later...how exactly am I personally the problem?

If I buy and pum from a locale that was destroyed due to over collection , then I have contributed to the problem. This has yet to be cited anywhere to my knowledge though. And again, Panama not setting quotas is the base problem.

[tritium]

you know infinitely more about frogs and how to keep them, breed them, where they come from etc than i do. i know that (and i appreciate the advice you have given me on those matters). that does not, however mean you know more about biology or conservation than i do.

with that being said, however it may have sounded, i wasnt trying to single you out as an individual. but that is the mindset that allows others to make unnecessary abuses to the natural ecosystems. and yes, panama should DEFINITELY be doing more to conserve their resources. but shouldnt we be doing what we can to curtail demand for an unsustainable product?

from a conservation stand point, the populations that were originally collected 15, 20, 25 years ago are lightyears away from the populations that are in the wild now. especially in the unstable regions where the collecting is happening. I just very strongly feel that if a country isn't conserving its wildlife effectively, we should do what we can for them. being new, i know exactly how effective this, and forums like this one are at determining the ethics and actions of new hobby members. coming in i thought it would be real cool to have a bunch of different frogs in a tank. i wont ever do that. why cant we take an equally strong stance against illegal imports?

[RichFrye]

... why cant we take an equally strong stance against illegal imports?

For the record, Panama pums are both exported from Panama and imported here 100% legally. Oyapocs from Brazil are 100% illegal, no matter what year or decade they were 'imported'...
Also for the record, I feel Panama should be closed to export until proper research is done and quotas set. The problem is there will always be disagreement upon what a true and lone breeding population is and therefore it will be hard to prove what populations are truly unique and truly in danger. The fact that I feel Panama should be closed does not mean I would turn down certain proven locales I, in my experience, feel to be healthy. It means I think Panama could and should be responsible and do a better job.
One could look to Panama 's neighbor Costa Rica for a system doing a good job at protecting their wildlife.

[cablemandan]

from a conservation stand point, the populations that were originally collected 15, 20, 25 years ago are lightyears away from the populations that are in the wild now.

I see it as simple as this.. and yes it sounds really simple.

If you keep, breed, and sell these animals. Then, when everything settles you can re-populate the given locale, provided egos and such do not get in the way. It doesn't seem much harder than selling a few here and there across the internet.

There is a difference between wanting to preserve a species, and raping the landscape for personal gain.

[Philsuma]

Justin,

Your 'unidentified' pumilio ?? Why not ask the importer what they are (locale) ?

[jeffr]

I noticed a few people selling W/C Leucs. Haven't seen that in a while

[Philsuma]

I noticed a few people selling W/C Leucs. Haven't seen that in a while

really ? I saw some offer in Miami @ 1-2 years ago. Marcus has some WC Leucs that I saw in 2008.

What I REALLY think...that is so cool if true, is that we breed so many of that species, that there hardly EVER needs to be any large scale importation unless a few of the 'big boy' breeders need a dash of new blood or if someone is searching for a 'new leuc morph' to market.

Conservation thru Captive Breeding !

[jeffr]

I noticed a few people selling W/C Leucs. Haven't seen that in a while

really ? I saw some offer in Miami @ 1-2 years ago. Marcus has some WC Leucs that I saw in 2008.

What I REALLY think...that is so cool if true, is that we breed so many of that species, that there hardly EVER needs to be any large scale importation unless a few of the 'big boy' breeders need a dash of new blood or if someone is searching for a 'new leuc morph' to market.

Conservation thru Captive Breeding !

Here's one
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php? ... &de=972336

[Philsuma]

Are you sure they are WC ?

They could be CB - some breeders like that Zach guy produce 2-300 a year alone.

They LOOK like CB....

[jeffr]

Are you sure they are WC ?

They could be CB - some breeders like that Zach guy produce 2-300 a year alone.

They LOOK like CB....

I always assumed imported adults were W/C

[Philsuma]

oops...missed that...heh :oops: