Poll - Keeping Darts in micro vivs ?

[Philsuma]

Polls here are anonymous....I can't even see who voted.

[Azurel]

Polls here are anonymous....I can't even see who voted.

I figured that much I think Mike did too just wanted who ever voted yes to fess up and support it. If I know Mike?

[Philsuma]

Yep...I'd like to know too. I would love John to come over here and debate this too. It'll be civilized - no bashing. Just gotta get my head around why someone likes that small size.

NOW I can see why they SELL them. Business is business- if something sells.

[Michael Lawrence]

I would like to know who voted yes and whether its based on experience or thought. I personally have thought about working in a new viv style that would better fit my auratus project with vivs no taller than 8'' with flip top lids but it seems to decrease the gallonage to the point that Id be a hypocrite to my own rantings. I cant imagine even trying to start with a viv that small. I feel the public wont be happy until those keychain vivs and pocket pets are the norm.

MIchael

[boombotty]

I voted no. The smallest size viv I have is a 45G and sometimes feel this is too small.

[Philsuma]

Again....I've WITNESSED Retics breeding in a plastic shoebox.....a....shoebox...

But

That was more or less an accident (kinda) on behalf of that breeder and I'm positive that HE wouldn't celebrate or recommend that, ever.

Just 'cause it can be done....doesn't make it right.

I have a feeling that someone that voted "yes" is the perpetual poster child of "I'll do what I want with MY frogs". I'm guessing.

[hutch0203]

I voted no. Even before I got into darts I have always thought bigger is better. I dont see any pro putting an adult pair of darts no matter what size in a 3.5 gallon tank! Not to mention once you add the back ground,drainage,substrate,and plants your frogs are going to have maybe 1.5 to 2 gallons of space. MAYBE!

[125]

I voted no, The smallest tank i would put a pair of thumbnails in is a 12x12x18 and that still seems really small to me.

[edwardsatc]

I personally have thought about working in a new viv style that would better fit my auratus project with vivs no taller than 8'' with flip top lids but it seems to decrease the gallonage to the point that Id be a hypocrite to my own rantings. MIchael

I don't see this making you look hypocritical. If there is no usable habitat in the space above 8" then those additional gallons are just useless spaces filled with air. It's for this reason that I've never liked using volume or "gallons" as a measure of space for frogs. Until frogs start flying or microfauna starts hovering in mid air, volume filled with no usable structure means nothing. Usable habitat in terms of area seems a better function for determining what is suitable.

A five foot tall 100 G enclosure has much less usable habitat (for a terrestrial frog) than a five foot long enclosure of the same volume. That's not to say that the vertical space is totally useless, as a organic (not foam) may provide suitable habitat for large numbers of microfauna ...

I've often thought of using shorter vivs with a wider footprint for species that prefer terrestrial niches. I say go for it Michael.

My opinion,

Donn

[Cindy Dicken]

Whatever happened to the standard 'one frog per 10 gal size tank' guideline??

I still use this when talking with new hobbyist, and explain that even though the frogs are small, they still need their space.

[Michael Lawrence]

Whatever happened to the standard 'one frog per 10 gal size tank' guideline??

I still use this when talking with new hobbyist, and explain that even though the frogs are small, they still need their space.

Somewhere in the past few years it turned to 5 gallons per frog and a select few have pushed this practice to many and now we have known hobbyists pushing 3 gallons for what Im guessing is a sponsor hope.

Michael

[Michael Lawrence]

I personally have thought about working in a new viv style that would better fit my auratus project with vivs no taller than 8'' with flip top lids but it seems to decrease the gallonage to the point that Id be a hypocrite to my own rantings. MIchael

I don't see this making you look hypocritical. If there is no usable habitat in the space above 8" then those additional gallons are just useless spaces filled with air. It's for this reason that I've never liked using volume or "gallons" as a measure of space for frogs. Until frogs start flying or microfauna starts hovering in mid air, volume filled with no usable structure means nothing. Usable habitat in terms of area seems a better function for determining what is suitable.

A five foot tall 100 G enclosure has much less usable habitat (for a terrestrial frog) than a five foot long enclosure of the same volume. That's not to say that the vertical space is totally useless, as a organic (not foam) may provide suitable habitat for large numbers of microfauna ...

I've often thought of using shorter vivs with a wider footprint for species that prefer terrestrial niches. I say go for it Michael.

My opinion,

Donn

Im working on it, And to be direct on the plans im talking about custom 16''x16''x8'' with flip top lids for pairs of auratus and possible groups in 24''x24''. I understand the need for usable space vs wasted space I just hope this doesnt affect the need to teach the difference to new hobbyists. I do not want to be one of the reasons they think 10 gallons or smaller vivs are ok. This is for a breeding project, that said all my other breeding darts have been in 55's or larger. Like the nano talk, there is no excuse for pitching that. I think it was a pitch or push for a new sponsor but who knows.

Michael

[Philsuma]

Seeing a lot of "Micro-Vivs" and "Nano-Vivs" being created lately.

A lot of people are tip toeing around stating that dart frogs are going in these, and/or people are opting not to ask...

[EntoCraig]

Seeing a lot of "Micro-Vivs" and "Nano-Vivs" being created lately.

A lot of people are tip toeing around stating that dart frogs are going in these, and/or people are opting not to ask...

I have a few 'Micro-Vivs' but they are for Mantids and Phasmantids. I couldn't imagine trying to jam a frog into one of these.

Even a 10 gallon tank is a little too small for my taste when it comes to adult frogs. Works great for metmorphs though.

[Michael Lawrence]

Ive seen the threads, I have just gotten to the point its not worth bringing up or suggesting a larger viv unless they actually state the idea is to put frogs in them. The reason behind it is just to stay out of as many of those threads as I can now and I personally know of more and more hobbyists just resorting to using tens now to hold pairs and trios of thumbs. The idea of more breeders= more money seems to be taking over and smaller vivs fit that bill.

Lead by example is going to be the best route and posting more pics of vivs to show new hobbyists what can be done will go a long way.

[jeffr]

I saw in the classifieds recently a trio of Cristobals with their viv. It was a 12x12

[Mahjimoto]

Personally i am shocked that even one person said yes. The poll is closed but i would like that add that those Micro vivs are just wrong for any dart unless we are talking about froglets.

[Stu&Shaz]

I inhabit a little forum here,we see a constant stream of folks wanting to use these tiny tiny vivs not just for darts but other species too.Frankly i deplore it,i wish the manufacturers would put a bloody big sticker on the front...UNSUITABLE for frogs,i've just seen a post from a shop selling these,makes me want to throw something heavy.
no i didn't vote but even as a 1st year guy, this has to be the biggest no brainer out there
goddammit
Stu

[Philsuma]

Now the term is 'nano viv'. Horrible