F1 , F2 ect ?

[DKOOISTRA]

How then does the "F" status benefit us? Knowing and keeping track of it?
Thanks for staying with this Phil...
Derek

[frogfreak]

Or are we "F"ing it all up...

Well, I know I'm all "F"d up now. This whole topic is "F"ing me up. :lol:

I thought I had it down until some other points were brought up.

F1 F2 fine, but as pointed out earlier, what is a F5 and a F1 considered?

Are we worried about inbreeding at all? You pointed out the small populations, Phil. Has anyone seen negative effects of inbreeding Darts?

[Philsuma]

I haven't see the effects. All the collections and breeder's that I've seen / been to , have all been in the hobby roughly 10 years or less and their frog generations don't really go that "deep".

I think the Snake and Lizard crowd would have much more detailed data on Genetics then we would.

So, the Breeders to ask would be Patrick Nabors and Chuck Powell....among others.

[GrandmasterTree]

http://www.reptileinsider.com/showthread.php?t=22714


...this may help you understand

[itskris]

http://www.reptileinsider.com/showthread.php?t=22714


...this may help you understand

You sir are amazing!

[GrandmasterTree]

Hope it helps

Though it doesn't touch on backcross breeding

[frogfreak]

Hope it helps

Sure does... Thanks for the link!

[Michael Lawrence]

There is no proof that in darts that breeding F1's F2's F3's or even to F5 and beyond that it causes any genetic failures such as runts or deformities. Darts have been bred to F5 I know for a fact and with no issues. Froglets grew up to be just as big as the Original Pair. Most issues reguarding runts and other issues can be traced to husbandry practices.

The only thing in that chart I saw that I disagree with is that when you breed AB X CD F2's its not F3 as the froglets are directly blood related from the F1 pair.

Michael

[edwardsatc]

There is no proof that in darts that breeding F1's F2's F3's or even to F5 and beyond that it causes any genetic failures such as runts or deformities.

One could also say that there is no proof that genetic abnormalities aren't occurring. Without empirical evidence in the form of genetic testing, we are all just speculating here. Not seeing physical deformities does not necessarily indicate that there is no effect. What about reduced fecundity, reproductive effects, behavioral effects, molecular effects, internal physiological effects, … most of which we may not be able to directly observe.

That said, there are mountains of evidence for inbreeding depression throughout nearly all taxa. The few exceptions known are mostly taxa with very small populations and low initial genetic diversity. Phil’s example of Sip’s might be an example, but I suspect that those populations, while restricted to small “islands” , are still large enough to maintain a relatively high level of genetic diversity. In addition, there is evidence that many of those populations are in close enough proximity to have some flow of genetic material between them. Given the evidence for inbreeding depression and an understanding of island biogeography theory, it would seem a bit silly to assume that Dendrobates are somehow not affected by inbreeding – it simply defies all genetic understanding.

I would also argue that we do see evidence for genetic change when inbreeding dart frogs. Line breeding (a form of inbreeding) comes to mind – obviously line breeding produces phenotypic changes in the line bred population (e.g. green sips, blue sips, etc.)

It’s also hard to say that frogs beyond F3 are rare and then turn around and say that we have not seen genetic changes in F5 or beyond. If F3 and greater frogs are rare, then we simply don’t have the sample size to come to any conclusions on inbreeding depression. On the other hand, if there is a sufficient sample size to draw conclusions about inbreeding depression, then F3 and greater frogs must be far more abundant than some would like to believe.

Darts have been bred to F5 I know for a fact and with no issues. Froglets grew up to be just as big as the Original Pair.

Size would only be one data point among thousands of possible genetic outcomes. Again, not evidence that inbreeding depression is not occurring. See my comments above.

This is how I take it.
F3 is "hard to attain" because three generations....is.....tough to do in this hobby. It would take years. Frogs die.

It may be hard to attain, but it doesn’t mean it makes sense or is responsible to do. Thexception would be a captive population that is so small that breeding directly related animals is unavoidable.

One could just as easily breed to third generation without breeding related animals by maintaining only the maternal or paternal lineage and introducing unrelated frogs. For example, an offspring from F0 pair is retained and bred to unrelated female, then one of the offspring from the F1 pair is retained and bred to an unrelated individual, etc …

Personally, other than bragging rights, I see no advantage to inbreeding animals to or even past F3 (with the exception of extremely small captive populations.) In fact, I would argue that while inbreeding to F3 or greater may show that a breeder has exceptional husbandry skills, it also shows that the breeder is ignorant to the deleterious effects and the overall long term health of the captive population.

If someone can point to any benefits of inbreeding, I’d certainly like to hear them.

Just my two cents …

Donn

[DKOOISTRA]

This is of interest to me as i have a breeding pair of pums from an older line, I've talked to you about them before Phil, nothing special, but that I'm aware of I've only been able to find 2-3 others that have them, not that others aren't out there, I'm pretty limited on my contacts, but it is a small gene pool. I've gotten 3 froglets so far...and really just wondered about "viability".
Derek

[Michael Lawrence]

That said, there are mountains of evidence for inbreeding depression throughout nearly all taxa. The few exceptions known are mostly taxa with very small populations and low initial genetic diversity. Phil’s example of Sip’s might be an example, but I suspect that those populations, while restricted to small “islands” , are still large enough to maintain a relatively high level of genetic diversity. In addition, there is evidence that many of those populations are in close enough proximity to have some flow of genetic material between them. Given the evidence for inbreeding depression and an understanding of island biogeography theory, it would seem a bit silly to assume that Dendrobates are somehow not affected by inbreeding – it simply defies all genetic understanding.

True to a point, but there is nothing proven that as far as they have been bred there has been any issues. There are hundred and more likely thousands of frogs in the hobby right now that are F4 and beyond. Take anything you get from UE, its already F1 like the Benedicta. Say this person buys up a pair, breeds them and has already sold the F2's as a pair or trio, By the end the year F3 and the next person has a pair of froglets from them. Should we start telling everyone that not to buy them? After all according to you they likely are very messed up both physically and neurologically. I only ask because this hobby has not and likely will not change for the better....

It’s also hard to say that frogs beyond F3 are rare and then turn around and say that we have not seen genetic changes in F5 or beyond. If F3 and greater frogs are rare, then we simply don’t have the sample size to come to any conclusions on inbreeding depression. On the other hand, if there is a sufficient sample size to draw conclusions about inbreeding depression, then F3 and greater frogs must be far more abundant than some would like to believe.

They are not rare, the problem is few know how to track what they have back and more do not care. Our hobby as a whole cant do anything until better management is set in place along with better husbandry practices so that we can get to the long term issues like line breeding.

It may be hard to attain, but it doesn’t mean it makes sense or is responsible to do. Thexception would be a captive population that is so small that breeding directly related animals is unavoidable.

[/quote]

This I have been preaching on all the boards. I see no reason in many cases to breed directly related frogs. Many have come in by the hundreds and even if not you need not go to the next inbred generation for atleast ten years if you know how to properly care for your frogs.

Michael

[edwardsatc]

True to a point, but there is nothing proven that as far as they have been bred there has been any issues. There are hundred and more likely thousands of frogs in the hobby right now that are F4 and beyond.

Say this person buys up a pair, breeds them and has already sold the F2's as a pair or trio, By the end the year F3 and the next person has a pair of froglets from them.

I agree. Problem is we have no idea what generation many of our frogs are. For example, I would bet that many frogs that have been around the hobby for years with no new imports, such as azureus, are well past F5 in many cases. Remember the thread on one of the boards about azureus not being as blue as they once were? Line breeding (e.g. sky blue, small spot)and inbreeding have probably played a large role here.

Should we start telling everyone that not to buy them?

No, but we should encourage folks to buy unrelated (or as distantly related as possible) for breeding purposes. What’s done is done, but we can try to limit further damage by discouraging the practice of buying groups of siblings for breeding purposes.

After all according to you they likely are very messed up both physically and neurologically. I only ask because this hobby has not and likely will not change for the better....

I didn’t say that they were messed up, only that the potential is there and, if we continue along the inbreeding path, genetic issues will very likely occur.

I only ask because this hobby has not and likely will not change for the better....

Unfortunately, you’re probably right. The hobby is not bound to change much. It’s more convenient (and cheaper) to buy a group of related frogs from one breeder than it is to seek out unrelated frogs. Convenience and economics are working against common sense practices.

They are not rare, the problem is few know how to track what they have back and more do not care.

I don’t think they are rare either. I mentioned that possibility because it has been stated in this thread that they are.

Our hobby as a whole cant do anything until better management is set in place along with better husbandry practices so that we can get to the long term issues like line breeding.

Agreed.

This I have been preaching on all the boards. I see no reason in many cases to breed directly related frogs. Many have come in by the hundreds and even if not you need not go to the next inbred generation for atleast ten years if you know how to properly care for your frogs.

We’re definitely on the same page here.

Donn

[DKOOISTRA]

Peter Keane and I were talking (well, he was telling me) about the first azureus that came in eons ago and how beautiful they were just recently. According to him, they've "degraded" quiet a bit. Then i see the post you commented on Michael over "there" with the 5 legged frog, It gets me thinking.
Derek

[Michael Lawrence]

Yeah that thread kind of irritated me. I wont be throwing my 2 cents in there anymore. While I get this subject, that one over there is clear cut. We dont need that frog being surgically fixed, or bred, or handed off to anyone who could end up using it as a breeder to loaning it out or selling it as one.

Culling off one clearly deformed dart frog out of the 200or so he has produced from that pair seems like a small task. Personally I would have culled it the minute that third arm showed up. Its no different than making froglets climb straight up out of a cup to morph out. In the wild the weak fall......and clearly it works out for the best or they wouldnt be here.

Michael

[DKOOISTRA]

I agree.

[BcsTx]

Michael I agree with you as well. Recently I had a BYH with a growth disorder (affected his back legs). I put him down (actually had a friend do it for me), tough but it needed to be done, he was eating and moving around fine.
I would probably take this a step forward and think any deformed frog that we know what the deformity is or do not know if it is environmentally caused or not should be culled.

[Venomos]

Sorry...Had to bump...Had all kinds of questions on this and this helped greatly...Kinda! LOL!

[Philsuma]

it can get a little sticky...you know those Geneticists !

The basic "takeaway" from all this is

WC----F1-----F2------F3

[Lady Bullseye]

Thanks for the bump.