Emergency! Imi with suspected broken leg

[dynekevin]

Breifing -

Type of frog - R. Imitator

Age - Almost 1 yr

Condition - Suspected Broken Leg

In quarantine

Treatment?

Full story - This morning i came down to my vivarium to mist like every morning. My mother likes to engage in the frogs just as i do and it was apparent she had misted probably and hour or two before i approached the tank. I noticed that this imitator (the third/runt) seemed to be acting weird. He was simply sitting by the door with his hands on the glass. I tapped on the glass trying to get him to retreat but he did not move. I then opened the door and i believe his leg may have been trapped in the door. When i opened the door he did not run or hide he merely lifted his leg up onto the glass. This is when i noticed a non normal curve in his back right leg.

At this point i was freaking out so i quickly cleaned a shoe box. Put wet paper towels down for a substrate, made a little hut for him, put some plant cuttings down and transported him to the quarantine. I put a couple flies in the box with him and rushed off to work. My thought it when my mom misted she closed the door on his leg and when i went to mist, his leg was released.

Now i am not 100% sure his leg is broken but he is definitely acting very weird. I think it is important to note that i have noticed his health was starting to decline in the last few weeks and planned to make a new viv for him alone. The other 2 imitators seem to have paired up and i believe he may have been stressed. So questions i have for you guys. If his leg is broke will it heal on his own? What can i do to best his chances right now?

I do not plan to put him back in the 33gal vert with the other two who seemed to have paired up. I have a 10gal vert kit that will be his new home but i have not yet begun to build it.

Please any suggestions?

[Philsuma]

As Flemish stated....euthanasia may be a option, but there's a few things I would do first.

I would place the injured frog into a fully planted viv and not a temp sterlite or box. There is going to be enough stress already without adding to it.

Another option would be to tube (catch) the other 2 frogs and move THEM to another viv. They are strong and healthy and would take the associated stress much better.

Treatment-wise, you could always talk with a vet....but IMO, there's not much you can do. Either the frog's leg will "resolve itself" and it will begin to function again or it will compensate and be able to feed...or not.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you do and how things turn out.

[dynekevin]

Will do Phil.
Ill update tonight.

[BrianWI]

I would move the other frogs. I would also say keep him in the dark more if possible and try not to keep checking on him too much. You cannot help him, only stress him more. If no bones are sticking out and his leg isnt twisted up, I like his chances.

[dynekevin]

Alright guys, so i came home work and checked on him (mist/fed). I decided to keep him in his container (a plastic tub). He seems to be able to move around but almost limps. There is no obvious breaks or twists. Therefore, i believe hes going to be alright. He seems to be eating (i saw a little poop). There we're still flies left over though, so i do not believe he would be an effective hunter in the large vivarium. That tank requires a lot of climbing and the bottom is pretty harsh terrain (lots of ups and downs / peaks / wood features / and leaf litter). I think putting him back in there would stress him more (with the additional move) and i dont think he would be an effective hunter with all the room. Plus with all the climbing i think it would increase the chance of worsening his condition.

Currently he is a plastic tub with lots of leaf litter, a hut, portho clippings and a mount of charcoal full of springtails. Additionally, i put him in a dark area to further comfort him. I believe the stress of the other frogs has been a part in this as well. Maybe i should have moved him sooner, for he is much skinner than the other two. Which leads me to believe he could not compete with them for food. I think keeping him in the container will allow his limb to strengthen with less risk of furthering damage to his limb as well as fattening up with the easy hunting.

On a side note, i began the build for his own vivarium. Its a 10 gallon (wish i had a 20 gal {with a vert kit}) that i had in my basement. I installed the vert kit about 45min ago. I should have the background up by tomorrow night. Hopefully i can get his new home planted by Saturday. I have plenty of hydro balls, abg mix, and plants for his new tank but i do not have a temp / humility gauge for it or a lighting source. Unfortunately, i do not get paid for another week and a half and cannot afford those things until that time. Hopefully he will make a bounce back in the next two weeks and can be introduced to his new home at that time.

I will give updates!

Thanks guys. Any opinions on my choice of keeping him in his plastic container? I think i have enough reason to keep him in there.. no? Love to hear from you all. God bless!

[Philsuma]

Sounds good. Separation was imperative and that's the main thing that should help.

As long as stress is limited, you should have a good chance there. Sometimes I find that temp enclosures and plastic bins are stressful on some species and at certain stages of life, but it's a case by case basis.

[RanaVenenosa]

I would skip moving him yet again. I would leave him in the plastic container (assuming its 3-4 gal min) for a few months so you can better control feeding etc. Before you feed him, I would put the FF in the freezer for about 60 sec or so just to stun them. With a good dusting, fetch them w a spoon drop a few close to him, and see if he can catch any. I would only do small amounts at a time so as not to stress him. As long as he can take a 5-10 flies every day I think he would have enough sustenance to recoup past critical stage. Setup a feeding station using a banana or something to help isolate the FFs. I would let flies he does not eat escape when you open the lid (assuming they want out). You dont want them crawling all over him.

Take care

-Scott

[RichFrye]

IF the leg gets worse (infected, swelling more than now, ect.) amputation does work in many cases.
A frog (past froglet /juvi stage, which yours is) can live a very long time without food. I'd keep it in the container you have it in now, as you have it now, and add small amounts of food once or twice a week, only. If there are already springs those should last a bit on their own.
Sounds more like a strain , sprain, ect being that frogs these size are made more of cartilage than bone.
As always, a vet who knows herps is best to consult.

Rich

[dynekevin]

Thanks for the advice everyone! He seems to not be moving around very much but who could blame him?

Rich - Im not sure if you read everything i wrote above (i tend to babble lol) but i did mention that he is a runt and much sknner than the other 2. When you mentioned only feeding him once or twice a week that scares me. I really feel like every day i should be replacing the old with new flies freshly powdered. Im sure nutrients must be a key factor in his recovery. I suppose you could explain his figure like | | vs the others which are more like / \. Could it be he is just a small frog? I would like to see him a bit on the heavyer side lol. So i guess my question is.. Should i only feed him once or twice a week or continue to replace his flies once a day with freshly powdered (stunned) flies?

On a positive note: I peaked through the side of the tub last night and he was sitting on top of the spring tail pile. I am sure he was nailing those little suckers =)

[Philsuma]

Rich is dead-on with not worrying about adult sized frogs IMO, but if that frog is weaker and smaller as you say, I'd definitely try to get freshly dusted small wingless melanogaster FF into him every 2nd or 3rd day at least.

Fresh and active supplements are essential, yes.

[dynekevin]

Okay thats what i thought, im just trying to speak my line of thought here. I mean obviously you guys cant see him and just have to go by my word. Pictures can be deceving as well. I am sure the both of you have way more experience than me and I totally trust your judgements. I appreciate the advice, i will give an update in a few days here.. maybe sooner if there is a significant change. Thanks!

His vivarium will be planted tonight by the way, im way ahead of schedule but in his favor.

[RichFrye]

There's a big difference between a 'runt' and a skinny frog. I call a proportionally appropriate, but small adult frog a runt, not a skinny frog. Sort of like a skinny adult person is not a necessarily a midget.
If the frog was skinny before the 'accident' , or whatever has happened, then there is yet another issue going on. Fecals may help. They usually are a good idea anyway...
Have they all been quarantined and fecaled ?
Springs (good calcium , easy pickin's, non-stressful) all the time with the occasional (small numbers twice a week, so as to not stress) dusted FF should be more than fine food stuffs.

[Lady Bullseye]

Is it possible the differences in 'figure' are because it is a male? I just wondered cause my group of imi 'CV' fit the description you give of the shape, with my (well fed) males being the | | and the females being the / \ shape.

I am very new, and these are my first frogs, so no voice of wisdom here, just a thought.

Hope he gets better soon!

[dynekevin]

rich - okay yeah you kind of answered my question throughout there. These are my first frogs and i have had them for nearly a year. My other male is just a big fatty and i wish this little guy would as be just as well. To answer your question, yes fecals were done on all 3 of them.

Glad to know that some frogs are just naturally smaller and skinnier.. i suppose that is this little guys case. I do believe there may have been a little territorial stress involved being with what i assume a probable pair and him a third wheel. He has been eating regularly so far. I fed some stunned ff yesterday and he had 5-6 directly in front of me before i closed the lid. Couldnt really examine his leg (he was tucked under some LL. I figure ill give him another week to regain some strength and relocate him to his new home.

Lisa - Haha thats funny because mine are almost opposite. The biggest, fattest, aggressive hunter has almost bulging sides. This guy calls all day long!! Lol. My other frog (not the hurt one) has a little bit of a slim body but still seem full bodied. I presume that this is a female because these two sleep together, hunt together, and virtually since day one are almost never separated.

[dynekevin]

Update! Frog is doing great in his new vivarium. Seems to be back into perfect shape and is doing great on his own! CheerS!

[Lady Bullseye]

That's great to hear!!