Quarantine container for pums- pics needed

[Stu&Shaz]

Guys could i please have some pics of what you use to Q pums.Phil if you need to amalgamate this into an existing thread,no worries.some recent posts have really set me thinking again :roll:,Especially stress caused by moving frogs and Q in an unsuitable container.I have watched reports of folks here losing frogs soon after moving,and in my humble beginners opinion believe this is a bigger thing than many of us realise. Recently i saw a post about lactic acid build up can anybody enlighten me about this, or give me some reading (preferably Stu friendly but I'll try and tackle anything) i need to know more about this, We haven't lost any new frogs yet but there have been some close calls i think,where two open sets of eyes have averted disaster. Shortly we might finally get some cem bastis long awaited,always need to know more i guess and probably always will.
thanks in advance as always,
Stu

[Philsuma]

Stress and the resultant release of lactic acid in the frog....the recent hobby discussion is the first iv'e heard of it, but it does bear thinking about, I feel.

The q-tine container for pums should be:

1.Q-tine containers should be bigger and higher than those other sizes used for leucs, tinc types. I would say even a 20 gallon size would be good. The extra large size critter carriers.

2. Q-tine pumilio singularly. No group or pair q-tine.

3. Ventilation. I got this one from Marcus B. and followed it up with my own experiences. Ventilation is somehow very important for newly arrived WC pums and I'd say it wouldn't hurt for all pums in q-tine.

and as always...lots of pothos - a jungle's worth, and some hides, film cans...lots of leaf litter.

[Stu&Shaz]

Stress and the resultant release of lactic acid in the frog....the recent hobby discussion is the first iv'e heard of it, but it does bear thinking about, I feel.

The q-tine container for pums should be:

1. Bigger and higher than for leucs, tinc types. I would say even a 20 gallon size would be good. The extra large size critter carriers.

2. Q-tine pumilio singularly. No group or pair q-tine.

3. Ventilation. I got this one from Marcus B. and followed it up with my own experiences. Ventilation is somehow very important for newly arrived WC pums and I'd say it wouldn't hurt for all pums in q-tine.

and as always...lots of pothos - a jungle's worth, and some hides, film cans...lots of leaf litter.

Some important points Phil thanks,i think the lactic acid is due to a frog in transport constantly being unable to settle...BUT I DON'T KNOW!!!
the big question you have raised for me is why individual Q for pum. Watching how some of my other frogs have reacted when being put back together after travelling separately,I'd have assumed, wrongly !! that a known companion might be a counter to stress,of course I'm talkingabout opposing sexes,i'm aware of male aggression
thankyou
Stu

[JJuchems]

2. Q-tine pumilio singularly. No group or pair q-tine.

Insight...here Phil. I have quarantined by pairs for several years and found it to be very beneficial in the sexing process.

[Philsuma]

There is no 'companionship' with frogs, so we can toss out that possible issue. The reverse - another animal, would be more stressful. Plenty of calm and plants and hides are what's needed.

I think stress releases some toxins that while obviously not deadly, per se, to another frog...are definitely debilitating.

I would actually q-tine all WC animals separately. CB stuff, from other hobbyists...then yes....you could group q-tine.

[Philsuma]

2. Q-tine pumilio singularly. No group or pair q-tine.

Insight...here Phil. I have quarantined by pairs for several years and found it to be very beneficial in the sexing process.

Just my opinion on WC stuff. I'm assuming your 'pairs' were CB because you say "pairs"(already sexed).

[JJuchems]

I am talking WC. I have if I end up with aggressive males, they go as singles however most of the time I have them in pairs.

[Stu&Shaz]

Hi Jason thanks for the help any pics at all.
It happens so often in this hobby that the method that works for one is countered by the method of another
fascinating
Stu

[RichFrye]

When unsure of health situations (one major reason why we quarantine, we're almost always unsure of WC frogs' health situations) if kept separate single frogs have little chance of cross contaminating others.

Priority should be health and assessing state of health first (testing, full and comprehensive as possible), and possibly correcting state of health.

[RichFrye]

Also, as Phil mentioned, dart frogs do not feel comfort by being with other darts of same or opposite sex.
In fact, I constantly watch the drive to breed followed by an almost 'there's the cab $, get lost' habits. Male goes off where he likes it (away from female) opposite ends of the viv at times. This is one reason I like to set up horizontal tanks for obligates. In nature the tendency is to stake out a tree, buttress, vertical object and call and move up and down. Females move that way too, up and down. If there is only vertical space the pair 'runs into' each other going up and down the same area. Horizontal vivs with a couple or m ore vertical posts make for a more settled in obligate, in my experience.
So, being able to get away from the Honey after business is done seems more the norm than searching out a soul-mate.

Rich

[Stu&Shaz]

Rich as always thank for the time same question i guess do you have any pics of a Q set up please.

second my obsevations concearning the soul mate have come from by breeding pr of tincs which seem almost inseperable,they always seem to be together, anyway be that as it may,it could well be more down to a captivity behaviour than anything else,plus this could well be irrelevent as the subject here is very much pumillio.
your observations both in the wild and with regards to the horizontal setup for your obligates which are the subject here,are thought prevoking thankyou, they and the logic behind them make alot of sense.
Can you give me more insight/reading into this lactic acid build up during the transportation process please?
regards
Stu

[JJuchems]

"Stage one" is leaf litter, film canisters, and a damp high quality paper towel in a 190oz container. I get the paper towel soaking wet and ring it out before use in the container. These are cleaned daily and is used during the treatment phase during the first 30 days.

I have "stage two" going one right now. After treatments for chytrid, parasites,bacterial infections, and 30 days they go to 190 oz containers of long fiber sphagnum moss bedding, leaf liter, and pothos with 3-4 film canisters. If issues occur with a specimen they go back to stage one till issue is cleared.

[RichFrye]

Rich as always thank for the time same question i guess do you have any pics of a Q set up please.

...
Can you give me more insight/reading into this lactic acid build up during the transportation process please?
regards
Stu

Hi Stu,
my pics would look much like Jason's "stage one" set-ups, but with plant clipping also added.
I am not a vet and do not have any medically relevent insight into dart frog lactic build up.
Sorry I can't be of more help.

[Stu&Shaz]

Jason ,Rich both thank you once again for your time,final questions i think :lol: Please could i have a rough dimension for a 190 oz container inches or cm fine and how are these containers vented? or are they unvented and say twice daily checks are enough to provide the inhabitants with fresh air.
Apologies for the slow reply,and a repeat of the thanks this has been of great help much appreciated
Stu

[RichFrye]

Jason ,Rich both thank you once again for your time,final questions i think :lol: Please could i have a rough dimension for a 190 oz container inches or cm fine and how are these containers vented? or are they unvented and say twice daily checks are enough to provide the inhabitants with fresh air.
Apologies for the slow reply,and a repeat of the thanks this has been of great help much appreciated
Stu

Stu,

The tubs are about 140 cm tall by 240 cm across circular. They are not vented and this helps with keeping cross contamination down.
The frequency of opening the tubs really depends most on when I need to feed them. Opening them twice a day could stress them more than I like. If they are larger adult frogs they only need to be fed a couple times a week in those tubs. Smaller new morph-outs I check and open about every other day. With plants in the tub they get enough O2.

Rich

[Stu&Shaz]

Jason ,Rich both thank you once again for your time,final questions i think :lol: Please could i have a rough dimension for a 190 oz container inches or cm fine and how are these containers vented? or are they unvented and say twice daily checks are enough to provide the inhabitants with fresh air.
Apologies for the slow reply,and a repeat of the thanks this has been of great help much appreciated
Stu

Stu,

The tubs are about 140 cm tall by 240 cm across circular. They are not vented and this helps with keeping cross contamination down.
The frequency of opening the tubs really depends most on when I need to feed them. Opening them twice a day could stress them more than I like. If they are larger adult frogs they only need to be fed a couple times a week in those tubs. Smaller new morph-outs I check and open about every other day. With plants in the tub they get enough O2.

Rich

Rich, are those measurements in mm not cm?...something doesn't add up looking at Jason's pic and going off the baseball,if an american baseball is the size i think it is ,i haven't ever seen one..... 140cm is 55inches providing your inches and ours are the same...forgive my ignorance...i don't know!!
I understand the venting now thankyou,intrinsically your relying on the feacals beyond observation to tell you if something is wrong. Sorry if anything sounds dumb here Rich,i need to be clear on this and i don't find it easy communicating with folks, always, on this damn machine.sound logic with the plants and O2 understood !
thankyou
Stu

[RichFrye]

Sorry, yes MM nor CM.

[Philsuma]

we all have our opinions here Stu. For instance, I personally hate those 190oz tubs. I call them 'heart attack" tubs, because the lids are often on so tight and so hard to open, that when you finally do, it makes a very loud sound. I can only think of how alarming it is to the frogs inside. Some people put the lids on very lightly or take care not to snap them them on fully, but I find all that to be such a pain in the arse when there are better temp and q-tine containers available.

Marcus uses the "critter carrier" (google it - dunno if they have them in the U.K) and I find that their ventilated top, ease of cleaning (heavy plastic), durability is by far, the best for our purposes.

Here's a pic of Marcus's (SNDF) q-tine room for pumilio. I've seen it a few times and I think it's the very model of what an entire room and seperate one-per containers should be. It's exactly what I would pattern a room after.

[BluePumilio]

I mostly do WC specimens (of all species of herps), so this relates to them. I mostly do WC as I work with species people have previously deemed "impossible" to keep in captivity successfully. I currently only keep a few darts (primarily pumilio) and this has worked for them.

For most species I quarantine in cages similar to the ones I plan on adding the frogs to. They are not sterile conditions, I use leaf litter, moss, plant cuttings, hiding places, etc. I generally use 10 gallon enclosures. Any frogs with visual infections such as bacterial, I treat ASAP in the least invasive way possible (drops on back). A culture and swab are taken for identification in case the antibiotic is not successful. If frogs present chytrid-like conditions, treatment occurs for that as well. Sometimes I'll send in a test for chytrid at this time.

After a period of about 2 weeks, fecals/smears are taken and the frog is treated for chytrid as well. This generally takes about 2-3 weeks for full testing and treatment. After this, fecals/smears are performed again. Chytrid testing may be sent in. I do my own fecals, so it's fairly easy and cost efficient. If I have questions, I'll send pics to the vet or have him do a fecal. If any frogs die during this time, I'll generally (usually if I am unsure, rare species, difficult species, etc.) do a gross necropsy and have a histopath done (not cheap).

For difficult species: I throw them in an established tank and don't mess with them for a month or two unless they are exhibiting problems. I generally do not treat or mess with them unless there are problems with them (specimens dying, etc). Then I try to be as least invasive as possible. I try to put them in their final enclosure when they first come in.

During treatment, if only small amounts of parasites are observed, I will not treat. There are several studies out there that show that nematodes, pin-worms, hookworms, etc. can be beneficial for the host in the long run. I strongly believe this as well. As long as the specimens continue to be healthy and there are no problems, I leave them alone. I treat if needed.

While I understand "sterile" conditions many like to maintain in the dart world, in my experience, most specimens do not thrive under these conditions. I can't tell you how many times I had an animal going downhill fast when I threw it in an established enclosure (and densely planted) only to be happy to see it rebound, sometimes after not seeing it for a few months. It is a risk, and I certainly keep the specimen/potential pathogens contained in the enclosure, but in many situations it's the only thing that works.

My knowledge of lactic acid comes from my experience with working with large fish during capture and transit (well, it applies to all fish species). It is established and proven in this field. It is also established knowledge in the transport of crocs (especially large ones). Based on my knowledge of metabolism and herps, I applied it to herps as well. I have not tested lactic acid levels in my specimens, but following protocols I follow with the aquatics, has lead towards the same results, increased success. This is not on a small scale, but over a wide range of species and a large quantity of specimens). Everyone was done in close association of a veterinarian who agreed with my hypothesis. I do have a little data to confirm the lactic acid issue, including the injection (and in some species, application to the skin) of sterile sodium bi-carb soultion into specimens to counteract the acid, in individuals that appear to have gone into shock. At the same time, however, they were given glucose to counteract possible low blood sugar.

You can at least see where I coming from on this, now. I am not saying my ideas are correct, but they have a basis and show strong results in my experience.

[Philsuma]

I would recommend larger Quarantine containers with good ventilation for pumilio.

Tincs and 'tinc type' frogs can go with smaller more enclosed tanks but not pumilio. They seem to suffer a far greater mortality when placed in smaller, 'stuffy' settings.