Input on 'Paru' - pics

[RichFrye]

I'd like some objective input on what people think about the looks of this frog. Bad cam-phone pic, but people should get enough of an idea to comment.

[ChrisK]

Paru? Can tell by the leg in the upper right corner - are you asking its condition?

[RichFrye]

Yes, it's a 'paru'.
I'm asking for any objective input. Be it condition (hard to tell, but I think the condition looks fine to me so far) , aesthetics with details (I know aesthetics can be tough to objectively convey, at times, but think dog show and actual grading) , pattern thoughts, etc. Any input that's objective as opposed to just the usual "nice froggie".

[ChrisK]

Looks a little like a dull, dark Quebrada Guangui, but probably a lot smaller

[RichFrye]

Looks a little like a dull, dark Quebrada Guangui, but probably a lot smaller

Hey Chris, I'm not familiar with the overall looks of Quebrada Guangui. Could you cite some pics for us?
Thanks.

[ChrisK]

http://www.kaktusfisch.de/Fr_mFr_06_Osyl_Que.html

[Philsuma]

courtesy of Google Translate:

Oophaga sylvatica (Funkhouser, 1956) "Quebrada Guangui" Colombia
Dendrobates histrionicus commentaries, 1845


(1) females in a bromeliad
(2) males on dry leaves

The variant "Quebrada Guangui" comes from the same area as the Mint version of Phyllobates terribilis . Oophaga occultator is also present in this relatively small area. CHRISTMANN shows in his band 3 is a very nice picture on the occurrence of the three species are identified.
It is striking that the breeding animals that are still practiced in our terrariums, have a much more yellow. Than similar photos of animals on wild populations Therefore today's animals are missing the red parts showing the images of the Wild. Only the toes are still dark, with the toes to be slightly brighter. A feature of the example above lehmannii stands there but even more comes to light.
Lötters et al. represent the "Quebrada Guangui" variant with others to Oophaga sylvaticus. The main reason for this decision was for them the distinct reputation.


(3) a couple of O. sylvaticus "Quebrada Guanguai"
(4) males in captivity

The terrariums population this variant seems to include only a few copies. Since the animals of his time with the Minten P. terribilis were imported, which are left in captivity reproduce well, probably was no reason again to gather in this area frogs. In addition, the distribution area is relatively inaccessible region of Colombia. Therefore, so also in the future not to accept the animals come through more or less dark channels to us.
On the Internet on various sites appear images of animals with " © 2001 Arachnokulture are "signed. These animals are very close to my frogs. Furthermore, there are images which are based on Erik Schoop, Rostock which my animals originate. If anyone has more information about them, I'd be very interested.


(5) the long-established female jumps to something else
(6) males is bracketed by the female

The reproduction of my animals can not yet much to be desired. My current backlog amounts to one male and three females. Here, I try each one female with the male to bring together. The male is not widely accepted by the females is limited. While it gets at the sight of females but only sporadically and not permanent.
The females lay eggs for off alone and twice so far I could register fertilized eggs when paired attitude. Once these eggs were gone, the female was aggressive towards his partner very, jumped at him, grabbed him by the waist and was dragged through the terrarium. Here the male is physically superior in good shape and the female actually.
The whole procedure is repeated for several days, without my male carries the obvious damage it. To the male ego, the behavior of the females looks like a disaster anyway. According to statements made at all anymore, remote eggs are unfertilized and now I put the poor guy again in an empty tank, so he can relax again.
After a while I put it next to him and females started the game so far every time again and again. I put two females in a terrarium together the long-established animal jumps and also to the new while it pursues short but such a rigorous brackets as compared to the males, I could not see before. After some time these two animals live together in peace.

[RichFrye]

Looks a little like a dull, dark Quebrada Guangui, but probably a lot smaller

Thanks for the citation Chris.
Yeah, this one is not nearly as crisp or defined , at all.

[RichFrye]

What's your input Phil?

[Philsuma]

I've seen a couple pics of that ' type' of Paru.....but I've basically seen 3 different distinct looking 'types'. I don't have enough info on this years U.E import, but I'm of the same mind as you Rich...If it were me and at this stage, I'd try to manage MY Paru as like-with-like.

[RichFrye]

Molecular Ecology (2007) doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2007.03479.x
© 2007 The Authors
Journal compilation © 2007 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
Blackwell Publishing Ltd Non-gradual variation in colour morphs of the strawberry
poison frog Dendrobates pumilio: genetic and geographical
isolation suggest a role for selection in maintaining
polymorphism
ANDREAS RUDH,* B JÖRN ROGELL† and JACOB HÖGLUND†
*Animal Ecology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D, SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden,
†Population Biology and Conservation Biology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D,
SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden


***Cross-breeding studies between distinct colour morphs
of D. pumilio suggest that at least some combinations produce
viable offspring suggesting low developmental costs
of morph crossings. However, possible costs of cross breeding
after the egg stage may be considerable (Summers et al.
2004) as the hybrids show an intermediate and dull coloration
that probably lowers the strength of the aposematic
signal. ***

[RichFrye]

Molecular Ecology (2007) doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2007.03479.x
© 2007 The Authors
... genetic and geographical
isolation suggest a role for selection in maintaining
polymorphism



***Cross-breeding studies between distinct colour morphs
of D. pumilio suggest that at least some combinations produce
viable offspring suggesting low developmental costs
of morph crossings. However, possible costs of cross breeding
after the egg stage may be considerable (Summers et al.
2004) as the hybrids show an intermediate and dull coloration
that probably lowers the strength of the aposematic
signal. ***

The first line I bolded explains that they believe the reasons the pums are polymorphic is due to the fact they are isolated and kept as such, and that one red pum looks for other red pums, not red looking fro yellow or black. One breeding group looks one way, another separate breeding population looks a different way. And in the different breeding popualtions/ isolated islands , genetic drift has settled them into the different morphs. Not random popping up of two, three , nine different morphs all interbreeding.
Dr. Summers (let alone et al...) is pretty much the accepted authority on pum studies relevant to what's being presented here.

[RichFrye]

And another one.

[cbreon]

Hey Rich, any idea on age of this frog. I know that many obligates colors change as they get older, if this is a ~7 month old frog, it will be interesting to see if it changes at all...

[RichFrye]

Hi Craig, those are two different frogs. I'll post more pics of others later also.
I don't have any idea of how old they are,
but here are two others which are the same age-ish and size and don't seem to have that extent of dull/muddy issues...I'm doubting that the patterns will become clear and sharply defined as most adult locales are.
But yes, I'll keep posting pics as they age and if they do a turn around and change drastically we'll see it. Most drastic color changes (not really patterns) in obligates occur very young, usually within the first month or two after morphing. These are all well over two months.

Once again, what will really be interesting is what the offspring of these imports look like. Right now I have another guy with six willing to trade to try to match like to like . I'm not sure if he'll want these first two pictured though.

I'm kind of surprised with as many people who got the first round and also just got this second round in we don't have more input here. Lots of views...

[RichFrye]

A little bit clearer pic of the first frog pictured.

[RichFrye]

And another pic.



43 guests, over 300 views, and NO input from other Paru keepers?

[Philsuma]

This species / import is a very touchy / guarded subject. People are hoping to make $$ and don't want to either a- tip their hand, or b - come off as 'wrong'. Both of which could hurt future sales. If this was a $50- $100.00 animal like pums, you would have talk and chatter all over the place. The high price is making this a tight lipped topic.

[RichFrye]

This species / import is a very touchy / guarded subject. People are hoping to make $$ and don't want to either a- tip their hand, or b - come off as 'wrong'. Both of which could hurt future sales. If this was a $50- $100.00 animal like pums, you would have talk and chatter all over the place. The high price is making this a tight lipped topic.

Surely was not a "guarded subject" before I posted the pics...and suggested ones produced may be muddy, before I even knew what was being produced...

There was plenty of absolute talk before this thread.

[Philsuma]

I think you are right about the chatter dying down and this thread not being well attended Rich.I can only surmise that the majority of the people working with this newly imported Species and Morph disagree with your management ideas and are unwilling to engage in further discussion here.