Poll - How should 'Paru' oophaga sylvatica be managed ?

[RichFrye]

Here are the emails sent and email received and dates.
As of yet I have not received any replies to my second or third emails. There was no info sent on how these should be bred. The two papers mentioned pertain to general breeding info (not Paru specific at all) when good info about founding groups have been provided. Not relevant to this case at all.
Simple questions asked to those who should know the answers and be able to give out info on how we should breed these frogs.
I must say I am disappointed with the lack of information given.




De: richfrye@comcast.net [mailto:richfrye@comcast.net]
Enviado el: martes, 18 de septiembre de 2012 13:27
Para: info@wikiri.com.ec
Asunto: Paru Sylvaticus


To whom it may concern,

I will be acquiring at least a pair of your 'Paru' Sylvatica, and would hope to work with even more in the near future,

I would very much love to get any and all information you may have concerning the process in which the frogs were collected, divided for breeding and any other information not already being put out to the general public.

I inquire for the purposes of the combining best and most natural breeding groups due the many morphs being presented and sold.
Thank you in advance for any and all information,

Rich Frye




From: info@wikiri.com.ec
To: richfrye@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:01:48 PM
Subject: RV: Paru Sylvaticus




Dear Rich,

Glad you are interested in breeding frogs of the "Paru" morph farmed by Wikiri SA at the Otokiki Reserve near Alto Tambo, Provincia de Esmeraldas.


Below we answer some of your questions.

We have provided Understory Enterprises a note entitled: "Insight into the natural variation of the "Paru" Oophaga sylvatica" written by Dr. Luis A. Coloma (See below).


Founder individuals were not selected by their color or any other features for breeding in controlled quadrats.


The frogs farmed (as metamorphs) by Wikiri represent the natural variation (at the metamorph stage) occurring at the exact same site and no artificial selection processes were carried out.


Metamorphs are being ranched in an aleatory manner. They may well be considered founders (of one group representing a highly variable population) for your breeding purposes.


Dr. Coloma and others will be publishing results of their work in scientific papers. Gathering data and publishing the papers will certainly will take not less than a couple of years from now. As you might understand, until the papers are published they prefer to keep the details and most of the information of their work in private. Nonetheless, they just provided Wikiri SA some references which might help on your work.


Regarding making appropriate combinations in trying to keep most of the variation of this natural population from the Otokiki reserve; they suggest the attached two articles (and references therein) for breeding guidelines and population management:


Frankham 2008
AARK Amphibian population management guidelines.


Best regards,

Ecn. Lola Guarderas
Gerente General
WIKIRI S.A.
Quito - Ecuador


Insight into the natural variation of the "Paru" Oophaga sylvatica - By Luis A. Coloma

de Understory Enterprises Inc., el El Martes, 8 de mayo de 2012 a la(s) 18:58 ·Individuals of the the Paru morph of Oophaga sylvatica (= Dendrobates sylvaticus) exported by Wikiri come from the Otokiki reserve. Otokiki reserve is located at the Alto Tambo region at an altiude of about 600-700 meters above sea level. Amount of color pattern variation within this Otokiki population, which occurs naturally, is perplexing.

At Otokiki, similar large variation in colors and patterns is seen in 3 enriched closed quadrats as well as in one enriched open quadrat, and in the control (not enriched) quadrat.

We have documented a great amount of intrapopulation variation towards the east of Alto Tambo, at Guadual (near Lita, Esmeraldas province), as well. Less color pattern variation is seen in lowland populations at Durango and Playón de San Francisco in Esmeraldas province, which depict more uniform colors.

How to interpret this variation and which are its causes?

Underlying causes of this intrapopulation variation are largely unknown and currently are a matter of speculation. For now, I am reluctant to interpret this variation as the result of hybridization, a phenomenon that can occur between species as a result of primary or secondary contact (after a period of isolation). Underlying factors behind the observed variation probably are in the evolutionary history of this population (somehow the historical human intervention in the area could have played a role as well) (not Wikiri manipulation).

Understanding the mechanisms that promote intra population divergence (such as the one observed at Otokiki reserve) and interpopulation divergence (such as the one among popualtions of O. sylvatica in the pacific lowlands of Ecuador and Colombia), and ultimately speciation is one of the most challenging and intriguing tasks in evolutionary biology. Geographical barriers, ecological gradients, genetic drift, and sexual selection are the main mechanisms (currently speculative for O. sylvatica populations, as I mentioned before) invoked to explain these processes, which are shaping the variation observed.

Centro Jambatu is very interested in explaining the evolution of coloration, morphology and behavior within and among populations of Oophaga sylvatica. We have begun a study in that sense in cooperation with a researcher at Texas, who is currently moving to Harvard University. At this time we are in the planning process and hopefully we will be doing field, molecular, and experimental work, beginning next year. The Otokiki population will becritical because of its huge coloration variability.

For a better understanding of this variation and its evolution, we need to conduct fine-tuned studies including morphological descriptions in relation to behavior, geography, and molecular population genetic structure. Also, we need to conduct lab controlled experiments to see its results. We will need to set up crosses between color morphs in order to identify color specific SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) and then examine the expression bias of parental alleles in the offspring. We will study behavioral issues and also we will address questions of color determination.
Finally, I think the people who love these frogs are very lucky to have Wikiri providing farm raised frogs from a population that depicts such a great intrapopulation variation, which include dull and bright colored individuals, spotted and non-spotted frogs, orange, red, yellow and brown colors. Hopefully this variation can be preserved at the site (Otokiki). Backup populations under care of hobbyists are also important as an ex situ tool helping integrative conservation strategies. Elicio just came back from Otokiki and told us that the piece of jungle (about 140 acres) adjacent to the reserve has begun to be destroyed.

Luis A. Coloma
Centro Jambatu de Investigación y Conservación de Anfibios
Fundación Otonga



Sent By:
richfrye@comcast.net On: Sep 09/28/12 8:43 PM

To: info@wikiri.com.ec

Hello Ms. Guarderas,

I sent this email below a week ago and had not yet received a reply. My first email was answered so fast I thought I should re-send this email to you to make sure you had received my second inquiry.

Thanks once again for taking time to try to answer all my questions. I very much look forward to your reply and more info on these frogs;







Thank you for your fast reply.


I had read Dr. Coloma's report in the past a number of times. My concerns are the lack of understanding why this may be the only vastly polymorphic population of dart frogs reported in the world. And his writings that they may have been manipulated by others (not WIKIRI) and the fact he could not rule out hybridization as one possible explanation.


So my mains questions remain, how exactly were frogs chosen from the natural areas of the preserve? If one group was collected on one end of the property were other groups also collected on opposite ends of the 140 acres ? How exactly were groups chosen and place in controlled quadrant/breeding pens? I understand they were not selected by color, but how exactly were they collected and divided? Are there islands within the 140 acres with certain phenotypes? And what thought process was used before scientific studies have been completed?


There is really no scientific information/write up on how exactly to bred the frogs. I would suggest like phenotype to like phenotype until genetic testing has been completed and written up. Does this sound a proper breeding situation?


I again thank you greatly for the quick reply and hope my questions can be answered . I am very much looking forward to breeding these frogs we now have in country as natural as possible,


Rich Frye

[Philsuma]

Good stuff Rich. Thanks for taking the initiative on this.

I have 2 PM's where people are basically saying "We don't need to examine anything else on this import...lets just enjoy the frogs".

Folks, I just don't know how to respond or take this, where people want to actively suppress further information. Knowledge and acquiring information is how we move forward and ultimately help the animals and the people that help the animals.

[heyduke]

Not to be dense, obtuse, or confrontational... But can I get a synopsis of the response? I read it a couple of times but am still not sure where the stance is on breeding the paru. As far as I could tell it was a much wordier position of what has been already said... Either is ok.. Which makes no sense.

Sorry to be dumb.. I'm tired.


Sean

[RichFrye]

... Either is ok.. Which makes no sense.



Sean

They say much less than either is OK, they make no stance nor suggestions. Zero.

What does not make sense is to choose not to answer a customer's valid and pointed questions. Because they could if they wished.
This is a for profit company with shareholders, for those who think, or got the impression this is a not for profit eco-venture...
I know how I take their lack of response. I'm quite sure others will have a totally different spin on the lack of helpful facts from WIKIRI and total lack of a response once direct questions were asked.
Very disappointing to say the least.

[RichFrye]

...

I have 2 PM's where people are basically saying "We don't need to examine anything else on this import...lets just enjoy the frogs".

...

Dig hole in sand , insert head at cost of proper breeding management.

'They're your frogs, do what you want'...

[heyduke]

... Either is ok.. Which makes no sense.



Sean

They say much less than either is OK, they make no stance nor suggestions. Zero.

What does not make sense is to choose not to answer a customer's valid and pointed questions. Because they could if they wished.
This is a for profit company with shareholders, for those who think, or got the impression this is a not for profit eco-venture...
I know how I take their lack of response. I'm quite sure others will have a totally different spin on the lack of helpful facts from WIKIRI and total lack of a response once direct questions were asked.
Very disappointing to say the least.

I agree that it is disappointing. I was hoping for a more definitive answer.

So, as I take it and I may be wrong, we really have no good collection data, grouping data, or breeding data... Right?

Again.. Not trying to be confrontational, just looking for a definitive answer.


Sean

[RichFrye]

"...they make no stance nor suggestions. Zero."

[RichFrye]

It would appear that the answer to the asked question of "How should 'paru' be managed" is that we will most likely never know.
The avenue of going straight to the first contact point (WIRIKI) in the chain from breeders to importer to customer as suggested has produced one email reply when I expressed interest and then after I had a few very easily answered, but pointer questions...silence for almost two months.

Now some are pointing to neighboring countries like Colombia and their business ventures.
I surely hope that two things happen with future projects that are 100% legal with 100% new frogs.
One, I hope that people who are interested , and there are always people interested in ANY new darts coming in, will take the time to ask any and all relevant questions (such as "how should we breed these ...") before buying . If the answers don't seem to make sense or add up, confirm what you are being told. if there is no way to confirm what seems strange, it may be time to re-think those frogs coming in just because it's legal.
The second thing I hope happens is people realize that just because a project is displayed as good for conservation it has zero relevance to being able to manage the frogs once they are in our hands unless 100% truthful and pointed information is passed along with exported frogs. Any and all commercial frog projects which are being exported from South or Central America today are absolutely for profit ventures and should be treated as such. Just because it seems good for froggie habitat to actually ranch some frogs for a few years it is not the express reason the froggies are being ranched, it's an after-thought and something that sounds great when business people want to start a business for profit. And, there's nothing wrong with a business of breeding frogs, just take note of all the variables involved.
Proper breeding management of our frogs should be a super close second in terms of priority , right after health of our frogs.

[Philsuma]

It appears that the 2012 U.S acquisition of these animals may just result in @ 50% mortality rate. hock:

[RichFrye]

It appears that the 2012 U.S acquisition of these animals may just result in @ 50% mortality rate. hock:

Where are you getting this number from?
I know Jason mentioned 30+ tally of those "died in keeper's hands". I'd have no idea how many were shipped.

[Philsuma]

Just the normal Hobby Scuttlebut.....

[RichFrye]

Just the normal Hobby Scuttlebut.....

To know the percentage you'd have to know at least a couple things.
How many were shiped out?
How many died?

Now, there are always going to be more deaths than 'reported'. Because some will look at it as an embarrassment or a fail and it may be neither , but not reporting all loss is the case.

These frogs are no more difficult to keep alive than most all other darts. Just because something is expensive or difficult to breed it does not mean they are hard to keep alive. All the basics are the same as with auratus, tincs and other obligates.
It used to be thought that pums were difficult to keep alive...then 'large obligates'... my large obligates live just fine without any real 'extras'. And I have them in all sorts of set-ups all the time. NOTHING complex or over-thought. I could pretty easily (and have) swap out a pair of pums with a pair of grannies in most any of my vivs and they would survive, survive just fine.

If in fact there turns out to be close to a 50% mortality rate with these obligates then I'd not look to saying that 50% of the guys working with them/buying them have killed them due to their lacking husbandry. If this was the case it would be yet another situation which is is totally unique to these import of 'Paru'.
And, if 50% of the frogs which are supposed to be going to froggers who know what they are doing and have enough experience to work with these rare frogs is the case , it calls for adjustment to who they are sold to and much more scientific information letting us know who wish to work with them and keep them alive why the husbandry need be so much more different than other 'large obligates' , grannies as one example.

[goods]

http://notiwikiri.blogspot.com/2013/01/i...frogs.html

[RichFrye]

http://notiwikiri.blogspot.com/2013/01/i...frogs.html

This 'information' has all pretty much been posted and talked about in the past.
There continues to be no answers, and no help in proper breeding management. Very unfortunate.

[goods]

Yes, but I read it as them stating the variability is natural and is one contiguous population. To me, this morph looks to be the result of a natural hybrid zone between previously distinct hobby populations. They mention the quadrats, and the variation is similar in the "frog enriched", "habitat enriched", and the "control". If they can't find scientifically significant differences between a manipulated quadrat and a control, it seems to me that the variation is not due to recent human manipulations but of natural causes or "historical human manipulations" of the habitat.

[RichFrye]

Yes, but I read it as them stating the variability is natural and is one contiguous population. To me, this morph looks to be the result of a natural hybrid zone between previously distinct hobby populations. They mention the quadrats, and the variation is similar in the "frog enriched", "habitat enriched", and the "control". If they can't find scientifically significant differences between a manipulated quadrat and a control, it seems to me that the variation is not due to recent human manipulations but of natural causes or "historical human manipulations" of the habitat.

Read again. They state variations in the variability of founder stock and wild frogs. They are "perplexed" etc. , same ol' same ol' stuff out about a year ago.
Pums in many areas are contiguous , and there are frogs on far ends of one population which I'd never mix with frogs on the other end.
Facts remain, there's no proof or info on how these frogs should be bred. Never has been, and emails still go unanswered. Bottom line.

"At Otokiki, similar large variation in colors and patterns is represented in quadrats under management by Wikiri (three habitat-enriched semiclosed enclosures, one enriched open quadrat), and in one control (not enriched) quadrat."

The above quote only means that the founder stock is representing the large variation,

** It does not mean they have done studies showing the represented offspring and the state of variability in offspring.**


In my only reply from WIRIKI they said it would be years before we read any scientific studies.

[thedude]

In the article they say "See figure depicting variation of wild-caught adult individuals at one of the study sites (Site 1) in Otokiki." If you look at the figure, it is every phenotype we have seen imported.

This really can't get any clearer after reading their emails and postings...

[RichFrye]

In the article they say "See figure depicting variation of wild-caught adult individuals at one of the study sites (Site 1) in Otokiki." If you look at the figure, it is every phenotype we have seen imported.

This really can't get any clearer after reading their emails and postings...

hock:
I fail to see the mud there that we have seen and hear of here.
I'm sure you'll find one though. Just as I am sure you will forever stick to the theory that there is no further ( actually , there's been no breeding info at all) breeding info needed and we all have all the info we need. I have no idea how you can still feel this way, but after about a year's time , I am quite sure it is still how you feel, and nothing I post will change your mind. I don't get it, but I can guess your general replies easy enough Adam.

3 out of 23 people share somewhat of your opinion.

[thedude]

As I've pointed out to you several times, the first choice and the second choice are basically the same, since UE sent out mixed phenotypes. So 15 people technically share my opinion, as you said. Also, on "the other forum" this is not a debate, and I'm willing to bet with the high amount of traffic over there the numbers would be quite different.

I don't have time to look through all the emails and postings right now, but I recall all the info is there. You probably just missed it because you have an agenda and don't want to see it :wink: Either way, nothing I say will change your mind either. You've made that perfectly clear through your posts that ignore a lot of points. The only reason I even posted this last time was to make sure people with common sense can see the evidence for themselves.

Breed like to like, breed mixed, it doesn't matter. They both work and both happen at the reserve.

[RichFrye]

...

Breed like to like, breed mixed, it doesn't matter. They both work and both happen at the reserve.

And at this last gem, I'm out.
Just plain silly.