Poll - How should 'Paru' oophaga sylvatica be managed ?

[thedude]

...

Breed like to like, breed mixed, it doesn't matter. They both work and both happen at the reserve.

And at this last gem, I'm out.
Just plain silly.

Only to someone who obviously doesn't understand basic biology...

Do you really think that on the reserve the orange frogs refuse to breed with the brown frogs? Sexual selection can play a role in their evolution (it most certainly does) but not to that extent. There is no way that 100% of the time, they breed like to like in the wild. I would think someone who knows so much about pumilio would understand this.

I sincerely hope everyone can see how ridiculous Rich's notion is that different phenotypes in this population don't breed together.

[RichFrye]

...

Breed like to like, breed mixed, it doesn't matter. They both work and both happen at the reserve.

And at this last gem, I'm out.
Just plain silly.

:?:

What I am going to do now is show a theoretical happening or possibility of how several distinctly different phenotypes could potentially be found in a 140 acre jungle.
140 acres is far from a small plot of land and I have personally never once been in dart frog jungle habitat and NOT found some sort of barrier, be it river, foothill, beach, etc.

The theoretical map I whipped out key is as follows;
Black is known human intervention into natural dart habitat. A road, a dam, and pens used for breeding. It should be noted that any time frogs are picked up from one locale and place into another locale it is by definition human intervention.
Deep Blue is water.
Green are natural barriers such as foothills and sand .
Red is the legal boundary of our theoretical reserve.
A/yellow, B/red, C/brown , D/agua and E/purple represent natural and distinct ancient dart phenotypes.

A and B used to be separated by a very large river, they now only have a trickle of a river going down a small section of shared habitat...

D and E used to be separated by large foothills , they now have a road going down the edges of where the used to be said foothills.

C is in the reserve , but is still isolated by foothills.


You will notice that in overlapping areas of both A-B and D-E we have orange and yellow dots, and we have agua and purple dots, but the main, pure and ancient concentration is not near the overlapping areas.

You will notice that C/brown is still isolated and has zero dots but brown.

I could theoretically collect Yellow, Orange, Aqua , Purple , Brown, the mixing of Orange and Yellow, and the mixing of Purple and Aqua. But in actuality only A with B , and D with E have been mixing , and this was caused by human intervention. C is all alone , but still in the 140 acres. While they all have representation (but possibly not the larger extent of the natural population within our reserve) within the boundaries of our reserve, they don't all interbreed. And none of them interbred before human intervention.

1,2,3 and 4 represent pens I am conducting breeding. It would be best to collect frogs only from areas where you notice only a single colored dot...and keep the pens segregated with only single phenotypes. I know I'd need more pens to breed all single colors I drew, but a square is easy to draw. :wink:

I have no idea how the animals breeding now were collected. I have no idea how they ended up vastly , hugely polymorphic.
I do know there are several ways this could have happened and drew out only one theoretical possibility.

I do have a second email with very pointed questions out to WIKIRI and hope to hear back from them soon. A few questions answered may go a loooong way...


I will answer Adam's post previous to mine , in detail, when I wake up and have had cup #2 of tea this morn.

No, really, I'm out...

[RichFrye]

Willing to draw more pictures, if it's needed.

[thedude]

So you are telling me, that in the plot they referenced with all the different phenotypes found in it, the plot that is very small, somehow manages to overlap into SEVERAL DIFFERENT populations that are separated by physical barriers? That's what you're telling me? Your picture and hypothesized idea could work for plenty of other cases...not this one though.

Also, I should mention that Mark said there really isn't much in the way of physical barriers in the reserve, and you can walk from one side to the next easily.

[thedude]

Oh and even if historic human intervention caused them to be mixed, there is no point in trying to separate them now. We may as well keep them all together, because that's how the reserve will always be.

[RichFrye]

^ Take another peaky-poo at my line drawing I made just for you, please.

[RichFrye]

I'll draw more pics and explain myself , just for you Adam, yet again , tomorrow.

[thedude]

That's ok, no need to do any of that.

Your entire pictures banks completely on there being barriers and human intervention being involved. I already explained that there aren't barriers, and what we should do if historic human intervention was a factor (can't un-mix the reserve or our frogs), and Wikiri has said they didn't move any frogs around.

Again it could work for other populations, but not in this case. The reserve is small (only 140 acres), which is NOT large by any means. Maybe on the East coast it is since it's so developed? Not sure your thinking there. Especially since you changed what you said a few times over the past year about if that was large or not.

I have work to do, so I should really stop coming back to this hock:

[RichFrye]

Adam,
I've not changed my mind in a year, excepting that I more and more believe that there are separate breeding populations which should not be mixed.

I have contacted WIRIKI personally, myself (have YOU tried??) , as Mark suggested when he could not answer questions I had for him...

and NO , zero relpy when I ask pointed questions.

I would ask you why , after sending repeated questions pertaining to needed breeding information would they only answer my first , very gentle probe, only to bail after I get a bit specific?
What would they have to gain from dodging questions any breeders should easily be able to answer. Why let there be a chance of improper breeding?

This is a commercial , for profit venture, and I want answers which they seem never to wish to answer. That in and of itself should be a biog red flag to anyone interested in buying a $500, unsexed , frog for which there is no allowable morph request input.

I am glad that you personally know what the reserve looks like Adam. Perhaps it could be you who draws out what it looks like? You seem to know what's up. Please show me what the layout of the preserve is.

As a side note. I'd also like to get people's input on sexing ratios. The reports I have read and the reports I have heard from friends tells me the sex ratios have been skewed to high male ratios.

[RichFrye]

The statement belows shows WIRIKI's lack of understanding of what is really going on with the 'paru' frogs.
If it were me, I would run tests before selling and breeding frogs, but that's just my limited understanding of biology speaking , I'm sure. :wink:
Maybe in the future, in some years, questions really will be addressed. Maybe.


"For A BETTER UNDERSTANDING of this variation and its evolution, we need to conduct fine-tuned studies including morphological descriptions in relation to behavior, geography, and molecular population genetic structure. Also, we need to conduct lab controlled experiments to see the consequences of color variation. We will need to set up crosses between color morphs in order to identify color specific SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) and then examine the expression bias of parental alleles in the offspring. We will study behavioral issues AND ALSO WE WILL ADDRESS QUESTIONS OF COLOR DETERMINATION ."

[Tuckinrim8]

So I thought I would post an update of the offspring my Paru have produced so far. I now have two pairs being kept separate based on their phenotypical characteristics. The first round of offspring came from the group of two females and the "orange" male before I obtained a second male that looked strikingly similar to my less dominant female.

This is the original male and the female he is now paired up with after pulling the smaller female.


This is the less dominant female who may or may not have been a parent to some of the first round of froglets (both females transported)


Here is the first three froglets from the trio before they were seperated (these are coming up on five months old and the only one that looks similar to the adults is the middle frog)












Here is the new pair (the smaller female) with a male from the same first shipment of Paru to the states. (female on the left, male on the right)



the new male



I picked the male up at Microcosm and only recently added him and the smaller female to their new viv and they have already taken to each other quite nicely!


The trio produced again before i seperated them so there is currently five more froglets in their viv. Here is a shot of the last one to morph as well as the first clutch of eggs since splitting them into pairs!

[Tuckinrim8]

Crickets huh...

All this talk about different Paru Phenotype being kept separate so as to prevent "muddy" frogs. Of the first three only one looks remotely similar to the adults in both color and undertone..
If breeding "like to like" still creates huge variability among offspring, does that change opinions on how we manage them?
Obviously three frogs is not enough of a sample to be remotely definitive either way but it is a start. I spotted a sixth froglet from the most recent round and they are also across the board in variability.

Rich have you paired your darker frogs up yet? Id be willing to bet that two dark frogs like the ones you pictured would produce offspring similar to what I posted above.

I am going to continue to keep both "like" pairs together until I have a good amount of phenotypically diverse offspring at which time I may start to put unrelated and different looking frogs together to see if their is any change in what the F2's look like.

thoughts?


Chris

[RichFrye]

Crickets huh...

All this talk about different Paru Phenotype being kept separate so as to prevent "muddy" frogs. Of the first three only one looks remotely similar to the adults in both color and undertone..
If breeding "like to like" still creates huge variability among offspring, does that change opinions on how we manage them?
Obviously three frogs is not enough of a sample to be remotely definitive either way but it is a start. I spotted a sixth froglet from the most recent round and they are also across the board in variability.

Rich have you paired your darker frogs up yet? Id be willing to bet that two dark frogs like the ones you pictured would produce offspring similar to what I posted above.

I am going to continue to keep both "like" pairs together until I have a good amount of phenotypically diverse offspring at which time I may start to put unrelated and different looking frogs together to see if their is any change in what the F2's look like.

thoughts?


Chris

OMG, one day and you pull the crickets ploy? I'd have hoped to go more in depth, but since you want it NOW...
A few things before I pass out from the plague I have been fighting off for a week;

1.Please show me three frogs bred together that are actually the same phenotype, please. And post different shots and place them together so we can really digest how different they happen to be. Objective is what we are going for here.

2. Please show me the offspring in about 7 -12 months when their adult colors and patterns are told.

3. If , if these are one huge jumbled group of frogs where several different original breeding populations of frogs have been out-breeding for generations then that will explain any polymorphism. And that takes science to determine.

4. I await true scientific studies to explain to unique mish-mash of what we see. If there are scientific studies already under way then those are the data we need to be listening to , not the same speculation over and over (by both sides)!

5. To answer the question of my breeding of any of these. I have decided not to work with any of these until we all get answers in a scientific manner, as opposed to a sales pitch. And I quite possibly will not work with them after we do get answers...we shall see.

I am a very patient man when it comes to starting a long-term breeding project. If others can do the relevant ground work before me, all the better. I like to learn frog others triumphs or mistakes.

[Tuckinrim8]

OMG, one day and you pull the crickets ploy? I'd have hoped to go more in depth, but since you want it NOW...
A few things before I pass out from the plague I have been fighting off for a week;

1.Please show me three frogs bred together that are actually the same phenotype, please. And post different shots and place them together so we can really digest how different they happen to be. Objective is what we are going for here.

2. Please show me the offspring in about 7 -12 months when their adult colors and patterns are told.

3. If , if these are one huge jumbled group of frogs where several different original breeding populations of frogs have been out-breeding for generations then that will explain any polymorphism. And that takes science to determine.

4. I await true scientific studies to explain to unique mish-mash of what we see. If there are scientific studies already under way then those are the data we need to be listening to , not the same speculation over and over (by both sides)!

5. To answer the question of my breeding of any of these. I have decided not to work with any of these until we all get answers in a scientific manner, as opposed to a sales pitch. And I quite possibly will not work with them after we do get answers...we shall see.

I am a very patient man when it comes to starting a long-term breeding project. If others can do the relevant ground work before me, all the better. I like to learn frog others triumphs or mistakes.

1. You were actually the one who stated that my original three were very similar in Phenotype and that you would have no problem keeping them together, would you like me to find the post?

2. Will do, but at 5 months and almost the same size as the original frogs I received, I find it highly unlikely that a red frog will suddenly change yellow and vice versa. Or a solid frog will suddenly attain spots for that matter.

3. Is this not the exact reason you had stated that the "muddy" frogs you had received were a result of? You can't have it both ways.. wasn't your original stance that a population of polymorphic frogs would produce "muddy" offspring? Is that still how you feel?

4. Sorry to hear you are not working with them anymore, but a "sales pitch"? Come on man, no reason to go shitting on a project just because there is still information to be obtained.

[RichFrye]

1. You were actually the one who stated that my original three were very similar in Phenotype and that you would have no problem keeping them together, would you like me to find the post?

Yes I would, and please show the original pictures because , now as they are shown, they do not look alike. One looks like SL, one Lita, and one , who knows...

2. Will do, but at 5 months and almost the same size as the original frogs I received, I find it highly unlikely that a red frog will suddenly change yellow and vice versa. Or a solid frog will suddenly attain spots for that matter.

I can wait. I'm in no hurry.

3. Is this not the exact reason you had stated that the "muddy" frogs you had received were a result of? You can't have it both ways.. wasn't your original stance that a population of polymorphic frogs would produce "muddy" offspring? Is that still how you feel?

You actually CAN have it both ways. The amount of 'mud' or the amount of 'clarity' and it's rate of occurrence will depend on how far out crossed and how long it has been happening. Not ALL frogs produced need to be muddy to have come from two totally different breeding populations. It is only one possible indicator.

4. Sorry to hear you are not working with them anymore, but a "sales pitch"? Come on man, no reason to go shitting on a project just because there is still information to be obtained.

As soon as the people selling the frogs can answer the emails I have repetitively sent then I will look at it as something other than a sale to them. No answer from WIRIKI for many months, and I am not holding my breath .

I do look forward to ANY true scientific studies that are finished or will be. I have already heard some interesting information which if published should shine light on the matter.
Again, I can wait.

[Tuckinrim8]

Chris, could you please explain what a muddy frog would look like then? Or better yet, a dull and intermediate frog?
Your three pictured all have similar lita netting and netting undertones . That's a good thing in my book. I'd gladly trade for the light colored female you have for either of the two in question if they turn out to be females. They do indeed have much higher amounts of brown , not so much black.
These came in in the last shipment. Offspring of the penned frogs.

[RichFrye]

Chris, could you please explain what a muddy frog would look like then? Or better yet, a dull and intermediate frog?
Your three pictured all have similar lita netting and netting undertones . That's a good thing in my book. I'd gladly trade for the light colored female you have for either of the two in question if they turn out to be females. They do indeed have much higher amounts of brown , not so much black.
These came in in the last shipment. Offspring of the penned frogs.

Right, that's part one of my request.
Better pics would be the next part of my requests. Because if I thought they were similar enough in one post and not so much in another , there's a reason. More pics will help.
But, it is all speculation on both ends.
If and when studies have been published, as they should be, as we are told they will be, then we will have our answers. I look forward to real facts and the end to speculation.

[Tuckinrim8]

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6615&hilit=paru&start=40

I don't know how to transfer pictures over from another thread but here is the link to t he original pictures from the other Paru thread. You want better pictures however I do not have anything better than macro shots to offer you..

Once again, what will really be interesting is what the offspring of these imports look like. Right now I have another guy with six willing to trade to try to match like to like . I'm not sure if he'll want these first two pictured though.

I'm kind of surprised with as many people who got the first round and also just got this second round in we don't have more input here. Lots of views...

So the fact that the offspring are coming out in an array of colors is no longer interesting to you? Seems at first you were interested in how offspring would look. Now that we have some examples, you fall back on what "scientific studies" will prove. Reading through past conversations pertaining to these frogs, I find it slightly comical how your opinion has changed..

I look forward to the published studies as well.

[RichFrye]

I'm done with this for today.
The fact that I asked you to show me adults in 7-12 months should interest you.
I honestly think we have the same hopes with this project.

Rich

http://dartden.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6615&hilit=paru&start=40

I don't know how to transfer pictures over from another thread but here is the link to t he original pictures from the other Paru thread. You want better pictures however I do not have anything better than macro shots to offer you..

Once again, what will really be interesting is what the offspring of these imports look like. Right now I have another guy with six willing to trade to try to match like to like . I'm not sure if he'll want these first two pictured though.

I'm kind of surprised with as many people who got the first round and also just got this second round in we don't have more input here. Lots of views...

So the fact that the offspring are coming out in an array of colors is no longer interesting to you? Seems at first you were interested in how offspring would look. Now that we have some examples, you fall back on what "scientific studies" will prove. Reading through past conversations pertaining to these frogs, I find it slightly comical how your opinion has changed..

I look forward to the published studies as well.

[Philsuma]

Adam...great pics, great frogs...but we all have our likes and dislikes here, as with a lot of hobby related issues. Personally, I would want similar size, shape and colouration animals for my projects. Only my personal preference.