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Just read Scott's post on DB about large numbers of grannies, sylvats, BJs and BLKJs being sold by...our usual suspects. For those 'who have no clue' ** or continually claim gullibility or ignorance*** , please email me if you need names.
I'll give you guys a clue though about who's smuggled them in ... it's the three main guys (smugglers, flippers and liars) I've had bitch's about for the last few years. Surprise , surprise.
If you have any doubts about CB legal lines or if in fact some flipper/smuggler has bred the 30 or so hard to breed obligates , ask for pictures and ask a ton of other questions. If the answer is "a guy in Europe bred them ( tons of adult age breeders...) and they all have paperwork" you are setting yourself up for smuggled frogs.
Paperwork does NOT, NOT alway equate to legal frogs, and the lack of paperwork does not , NOT always equate to illegal frogs. The sooner some people understand this , the better for the hobby.
Ask them to show you pics of the breeding set-ups from the guy/s in EU and see what you get. Ask for pics of young, eggs, courting , year after year.
Anyone with detailed info on these guys or anyone needing detailed info on my own breeding , please feel free to contact me @
richfrye@comcast.net
These guys are once again undermining our hobby and it's real, actual captive breeding program and projects. Both here and in the wild.
And, thanks Scott for bringing this out into the open when it is not always so clear on DB.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Rich is 100% correct on all that.
It's a catch 22. We should be slamming and pounding these people, but to do so actually gives them a bit of advertising 'juice'.
Ask yourself....do you want to be a:
"Outlaw Frogger
Cowboy Frogger
Gangbanger Frogger
Don't tread on me Frogger"
the 'I'm a fully formed 20 some year old who knows everything" Frogger
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
or instead, be proud of the people you support, do right by the animals and be a contributor and asset to the hobby. If not, and you LIKE the funny titles / names above...go for it. We (the responsible and right thinking part of the Hobby) will have to take care of your frogs and clean up your mess in 1.5 years when your flash-in-the-pan joy ride expires and you move on to 'better things".
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So I am a little confused on something. Are all frogs out of Europe considered questionable? Or is it just like over here where it depends on who you are buying them from?
I am always seeing larger obligates over there and I am wondering why no one has imported any.
Of course I understand that WC frogs can just be brought into Germany and then sent over to us as a way to avoid CITES, but I would think there are reputable breeders over there same as there are over here.
-Byron
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Sure, there are excellent Dutch, Swedish, Belgian breeders for example. If I were to import, I'd insist on a small 'affidavit' of 'breeder-ship' and some pictures of the parent frogs / hobbyist breeding setup. That would be 100% clear in my mind.
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Armson Wrote:So I am a little confused on something. Are all frogs out of Europe considered questionable?
No, 30-40 sylvatica, 30-40 histos, 30-40 grannulifera at once is though. Hell , so are 30+ of any pums.
Armson Wrote:Or is it just like over here where it depends on who you are buying them from?
It very much depends. It's just that there are some HUGE known/proven smugglers over there that even though they have been caught, fined, etc., they carry on as if nothing negative happened. And certain importers and guys who know damn well better (some once vocal members here even...) continue to buy them up from the EU.
Armson Wrote:I am always seeing larger obligates over there and I am wondering why no one has imported any.
Not sure what you mean by "larger". We actually have a better track record for at least some legit obligates over here.
I personally once was planning on importing sylvats which were purported to be 100% CB and 100% legal/ethical...got porked big time on that one, along with a lot of other long time hobbyists...
Armson Wrote:Of course I understand that WC frogs can just be brought into Germany and then sent over to us as a way to avoid CITES, but I would think there are reputable breeders over there same as there are over here.
-Byron
They are not "avoiding " CITES. They are washing by saying that sylvats, histos , vanzos etc. have been captive bred and are therefore legal to ship.
Vanzos and mystis breed like rat frogs and have been bred to death over there, sort of like bunker guys have been breeding mystis here for quite some time.
But, 30+ of ANY supposedly CB obligate is bullshit and should raise a huge red flag.
How many guys do you know of Byron who breed crap lads of obligates? How long did I unfortunately make you wait until I got over the heavily sexed female BJs? I would guess that i am one of the largest, if not THE largest breeder of obligates in the U.S.
Common sense is just that. Some things need not be over-thought. And it just makes many of us who know what's going on sick when we continually here the same bull from guys who have more than been around the block.
" I had NO idea :oops: :oops: "
"They are here now, what do we do? " :oops: :oops:
"I'm sooo gullible." :oops: :oops: :oops:
Lying asses.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Here's the BIG OVERRIDING concern with 'Rare' E.U stuff...
Do you think the Europeans would EVER do us Americans a solid...a favour ? They could MORE easily move them to other EU Nations or even Asia and make DOUBLE what they could by throwing us Americans a bone.
It makes very little sense for them to send us 'the cream of the crop'. Sloppy seconds, maybe.
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Philsuma Wrote:...Sloppy seconds, maybe.
Yup, unless you TRULY have a good friend over there...
Dead frogs pre-frozen shipped as if they were live frogs.
The sick and 'not right'
And the kicker, for those looking for female Litas (or any other sex that never came in) , all males.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Posts: 4,450
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Joined: Jun 2004
Gotta love how The ED mentions institute frogs in Scott's thread, when nobody brings up, and nobody mentions institute frogs. Nor is it a relevant topic in the thread. Ass.
He mentions institute frogs because of the post I made here about TWI/ASN and his lovely interpretation of "stolen" institute frogs which some keep alive in the hobby. Probably didn't help matters that we all have pretty much the same feeling about TWI/ASN and the lack of positive movement...
So, anybody who needs info on not only the asses in the hobby smuggling the above mentioned frogs, but also asses like Ed who are nothing but ego and spite driven (ask him about his Panama pum projects) , and/or info on my institute frogs , you have my email addy.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Posts: 618
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Joined: Feb 2009
I find it interesting that Ed is going after legit frogs instead of those sylvaticus and histos plus others laundered via Germany (EU) Imports. I caution everyone about EU Imports of late, they are diseased (rana and or bd positive or other).
Have proof and will be happy to share.
Just a buyer beware FYI.
-Beth
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BcsTx Wrote:I find it interesting that Ed is going after legit frogs instead of those sylvaticus and histos plus others laundered via Germany (EU) Imports. I caution everyone about EU Imports of late, they are diseased (rana and or bd positive or other).
Have proof and will be happy to share.
Just a buyer beware FYI.
Beth, please share. Let's get that info out there.
Jon
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Here is the deal, purchased EU Mints from a well known breeder was told from his wife came from Germany received them, looked fine were not big eaters from the beginning then 2 weeks after purchase was treating them for lesions per Dr Fryes instruction, contacted breeder and she said all of the frogs from the same import were fine, keep I mind there's frogs were QT in a room 3 doors down separate from my frog room. Treated them diligently 2 times a day then one died. Tested for Chytrid and rana and were rana positive. Contacted breeder who sent me replacements that were not EU but they tested rana positive and were not eating either. I euthenized after positive rana results, frogs were not eating and suffering non the less.
I am out over 1K on frogs, meds and shipping. Breeder said that I had rana in my collection due to the first frogs he shipped to me were positive although kept in strict QT. So blamed his positive rana frogs on me.
I have tested my collection for rana and bd after his frogs and all negative.
Have a friend that bought mints from same breeder that perished due to hi levels if bd (Chytrid).
-Beth
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BcsTx Wrote:Here is the deal, purchased EU Mints from a well known breeder was told from his wife came from Germany received them, looked fine were not big eaters from the beginning then 2 weeks after purchase was treating them for lesions per Dr Fryes instruction, contacted breeder and she said all of the frogs from the same import were fine, keep I mind there's frogs were QT in a room 3 doors down separate from my frog room. Treated them diligently 2 times a day then one died. Tested for Chytrid and rana and were rana positive. Contacted breeder who sent me replacements that were not EU but they tested rana positive and were not eating either. I euthenized after positive rana results, frogs were not eating and suffering non the less.
I am out over 1K on frogs, meds and shipping. Breeder said that I had rana in my collection due to the first frogs he shipped to me were positive although kept in strict QT. So blamed his positive rana frogs on me.
I have tested my collection for rana and bd after his frogs and all negative.
Have a friend that bought mints from same breeder that perished due to hi levels if bd (Chytrid).
Beth , serious head on 
Beth can you tell me is your breeder in the states or EU,I'm slightly confused,i understand your frogs came from germany,do you know where please? So many of our frogs come from germany or travel through,to the UK this is of great concern to us here.
Mate this is an awful tale and I'm gutted for you and the frogs,but i draw some solace from the fact your other frogs are ok.
best
Stu
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I appreciate threads like this. If you have been in the hobby long enough you have a good sense of what's legal and what's BS but for newer hobbyist these threads are essential for them learning what is what. Thanks for posting this.
Garrick H.
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When are you gonna learn Craig? They are just going to lock and suppress things over there.
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Philsuma Wrote:When are you gonna learn Craig? They are just going to lock and suppress things over there.
So very very true Phil. But finally, Taron has been banned from placing any for sale or any want ads. Ding Dong the witch is dead. The great news is...you won't put up with his BS here!!!!!
Jon
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Rusty_Shackleford Wrote:Ding Dong the witch is dead. Sorry to say Jon, but not dead. He'll continue to sell, with or without forums...
Glenn
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frogfreak Wrote:Rusty_Shackleford Wrote:Ding Dong the witch is dead. Sorry to say Jon, but not dead. He'll continue to sell, with or without forums...
I understand that Glenn. But his capacity to do business is greatly reduced. I've been to enough shows to see how much money it out there and ready to be spent. But now he can't market directly to froggers over a mass medium. Now he is forced to make "back alley" deals for his illegal and sick frogs.
Jon
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Jon, I believe Phil is referring to exhibit a:
* deleted *.......sorry Craig. Not links to the "goofy board" Almost all of our current membership knows the difference of Dart Den and the others and what we are referring to. I don't want links left active to that place.
Phil, I hope you can let this up for people to refer to, and see first hand, open conversations with a free, respectful exchange of ideas is not welcome some places.
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I unerstand where you're coming from Craig. I wish that thread hadn't been locked. I personally don't see how it's the hobbyists fault if a zoo or institution releases frogs to the public rather than destroy them. Why should the hobbyists be punished?
Jon
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Are you sure Taron is banned? I just saw that he posted a want ad.
Dendrobates, Phyllobates, Rantiomeya, Epipedobates
Don
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