Narino Sylvatica in U.S hobby ?

[itskris]

Anyone in the US with Narino Sylvatica (white with Orange splashed back aka Koi)??

[rcteem]

Anyone in the US with Narino Sylvatica (white with Orange splashed back aka Koi)??

You mean red and black? Its the El Pangan if thats what you mean.

[Philsuma]

I'm pretty sure what you mean.....can you post a google pic ?

[goods]

I think they're referring to the morph pictured in figure 810 pg. 615 of Lotters et al for those with access to the book.

[itskris]

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[itskris]

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[Armson]

Please Please Please tell me someone is successfully breeding them in the US.

[rcteem]

Please Please Please tell me someone is successfully breeding them in the US.

If they are I wouldn't count on anyone posting it here.

[Armson]

I just want to know that we have them breeding.

So I have something to look forward to one day.

[RichFrye]

Most of the ones I know of here are used as bargaining chips and trade fodder.
They don't breed like crazy, so those who are fickle or impatient and just want them as a feather in their cap ( ' I've worked with such and such '...) never get a real breeding project going . A real long term breeding project is what it would take to get anything established and the ones buying up any and all whatevers from anybody, from anybody don't have the the skill or patience or want to keep these , breed them well, hold back, and then get them to those who can get another long term breeding project going.

The above is all aside from the probable legal status of that locale.

[Armson]

So doesn't anybody have a breeding project with them going? I just think it's a really pretty frog and someday (way in the future) I would like these to be readily available.

[RichFrye]

So doesn't anybody have a breeding project with them going? I just think it's a really pretty frog and someday (way in the future) I would like these to be readily available.

What I consider to be a comfortable breathing room for breeding groups of any hard/next to impossible to replace darts as a real long term project is a bare minimum of three breeding groups of the one locale. And the first releases going to at least a couple good friends who will absolutely get my line back to me if there is a catastrophe and my line is lost at my site.

No, nobody that I know of or have heard of has anything close to that going here in the U.S. But, most don't go that far on many lines of the easy stuff either.

[Swampfox]

So doesn't anybody have a breeding project with them going? I just think it's a really pretty frog and someday (way in the future) I would like these to be readily available.

So, I think Rich covered it pretty well. I just cannot help but read your post and feel the need to respond to you. You seem very enthusiastic, which is a good thing, but I can tell you don't have much experience with animals that fall into "this" bucket. I think it might be valuable to share some things with you about our hobby that can at least give you the proper perspective when evaluating your future goals for your own collection / husbandry efforts.

Our hobby is very much segregated. There exists a fairly vocal majority of hobbyists that are working with every common to moderately rare morph the US has access to legaly and in some cases illegally. These folks make up the vast majority of the members of our various dart frog related forums. The frog listed in this thread, and those like them, are not kept by more than a handful of such hobbyists. They will also never be "readily available" based on the very nature of the people who gravitate to this hobby to keep them.

You see, there is another group of folks that make up a very small minority. You don't see them much on forums. They have significant financial means and have spent a great deal of time and effort tracking down what is in country and who has it. You will not ever hear from these people unless you have something they want or the financial means to get something they want. Animals enter their collections and are never heard from again. If breeding is happening, offspring are traded behind the scenes. More important than all of this is that this group of people is extremely unpleasant. They are catty, entitled, and for the life of me, I cannot figure out what they truly want for these animals. In my experience, it is NOT to see them flourish, unless said flourishing can provide an ego boost or increase their chances of getting the "next rare thing". To avoid sounding overly harsh, there are a handful of exceptions to this general statement. Decent folks, generous with their time and knowledge, and have a proven record of producing future generations of what they keep. I will let you guess how these few are generally treated by the rest of their "large obligate" peers...

So, the question you really need to ask is: why are you in this hobby? If your passion is for the life cycle, conservation, general aesthetics, precise husbandry of dendrobatid frogs, do yourself a massive favor and stay away from these types of animals. If you want to be the next forum rock star, by all means seek out those who share your motivation. Just do so cautiously because you might not like what you find. I certainly didn't. Read what Rich said again, very carefully. One person, three breeding groups, then distribution to close friends under the guarantee that animals will be returned to him if something happens to his original groups. Does that sound like an animal you will ever see in your collection? And that is not a knock on Rich, he is honest and not even in the same universe as the worst people who deal with obligates. I have personally received emails from people saying they would rather their female "such and such from somewhere in south america" die of old age than send it to be paired with any of the males owned by "so and so" regardless of how many viable offspring "so and so" has produced.

Nothing personal, Armson. Just trying to save you some headache. Lots of ways to help the hobby, OP, and this is not one of them. Way to paint a giant bullseye that says "anyone with rare frogs, please immediately blacklist me because I clearly have no idea what I am doing!" though...

[Armson]

So to whomever is breeding the following.....

Histos
sylvatica
blue foot luecs

If you give me some, I will be your best friend.


Ok seriously though.

How would we go about getting these established in the US?
I am not looking to buy any of these frogs right now but knowing that these frogs are becoming more prevalent in the hobby gives me a goal to look forward to, Something to work toward.

Rich,

Back in the 90's I saw countless "blue jeans" Pumilio for sale at reptile shows. I wouldn't dare buy them because I hadn't even heard of anyone being successful with them. Not to mention the pure lack of information regarding their care. Well here we are in 2012/13 and holy shit, I just bought my own pair of captive bred "blue jeans".

Wouldn't it be awesome if in 5 years I could go out and buy a captive bred breeding pair of Koi?
I am not interested in getting something right now, I just want to know that in a few years my choice of frogs will be increased to include all these stunning frogs and that if I need information regarding their care I can simple hop on to dart den and talk with an ass ton of people that have been breeding them and are successful.

[Armson]

Swampfox,

Damn where do I begin.....

So, I think Rich covered it pretty well. I just cannot help but read your post and feel the need to respond to you. You seem very enthusiastic, which is a good thing, but I can tell you don't have much experience with animals that fall into "this" bucket. I think it might be valuable to share some things with you about our hobby that can at least give you the proper perspective when evaluating your future goals for your own collection / husbandry efforts.

I have been into frogs since I was young. I started back in the early 90's when I was middle school and continued through college until about 1999. I always wanted Darts but stayed away from them because I didn't think there was enough info on them and I didn't have the cash to drop on a frog and then have it turn around and Die on me. Well now I have the cash and clearly the information is far better. You are 100% correct I don't have much experience with "these" darts but I would like to read as much information and find out as much as I can in the hopes of one day acquiring them.

Our hobby is very much segregated. There exists a fairly vocal majority of hobbyists that are working with every common to moderately rare morph the US has access to legaly and in some cases illegally. These folks make up the vast majority of the members of our various dart frog related forums. The frog listed in this thread, and those like them, are not kept by more than a handful of such hobbyists. They will also never be "readily available" based on the very nature of the people who gravitate to this hobby to keep them.

I really hope you are wrong about this.

You see, there is another group of folks that make up a very small minority. You don't see them much on forums. They have significant financial means and have spent a great deal of time and effort tracking down what is in country and who has it. You will not ever hear from these people unless you have something they want or the financial means to get something they want. Animals enter their collections and are never heard from again. If breeding is happening, offspring are traded behind the scenes. More important than all of this is that this group of people is extremely unpleasant. They are catty, entitled, and for the life of me, I cannot figure out what they truly want for these animals. In my experience, it is NOT to see them flourish, unless said flourishing can provide an ego boost or increase their chances of getting the "next rare thing". To avoid sounding overly harsh, there are a handful of exceptions to this general statement. Decent folks, generous with their time and knowledge, and have a proven record of producing future generations of what they keep. I will let you guess how these few are generally treated by the rest of their "large obligate" peers...

How in the hell can you not want to breed rare frogs? (not saying these people don't exist or that you are wrong) These people you speak of are they mentally challenged? To me getting your frogs to breed is the whole point.
Not getting them to breed is like...
Mt climbing and not getting to the peak.
Going scuba diving and never jumping in the water.
Going to a football game and staying in your car to listen to it.

So, the question you really need to ask is: why are you in this hobby?

I have no idea... I just guess I like pretty frogs. I have since I was very young. I enjoy creating natural habitats and making it look as close to nature as possible. I guess some people paint. Some people play an instrument. I like to create ecosystems.

If your passion is for the life cycle, conservation, general aesthetics, precise husbandry of dendrobatid frogs, do yourself a massive favor and stay away from these types of animals.

My passion is indeed for all of the above but I don't think that because some small minded individuals want to hog up the good stuff I should throw my hands up and not try to acquire these rarer frogs (When I am ready).

If you want to be the next forum rock star, by all means seek out those who share your motivation. Just do so cautiously because you might not like what you find. I certainly didn't.

HA! No I went through high school and did pretty well. I have no need to boast about my penis size on any forum. MY wife and mistresses say "it's a good size" so I am not worried. (Just kidding I don't have mistresses, I only have one mistress)
I am also an ex Navy Seal ninja that teaches seals how to fight.
When I am not being a super badass fighter. I teach sports stars and celebrates how to pick up women.
Brad Pitt and David Beckum where two of my clients they had no idea how to talk to women before I taught them.

Achievement unlocked: Forum Rockstar!

Read what Rich said again, very carefully. One person, three breeding groups, then distribution to close friends under the guarantee that animals will be returned to him if something happens to his original groups. Does that sound like an animal you will ever see in your collection? And that is not a knock on Rich, he is honest and not even in the same universe as the worst people who deal with obligates. I have personally received emails from people saying they would rather their female "such and such from somewhere in south america" die of old age than send it to be paired with any of the males owned by "so and so" regardless of how many viable offspring "so and so" has produced.

Wow, What level of Asshole do you have to be at that you would rather see an animal die than send it to be paired? That is some serious spite (Shit even my worst ExGFs didn't have that much spite) and you seriously need your ass kicked if you think this way. Everyone gets up in arms about Hybrids, I would hate to see the debate on Extinction.

Nothing personal, Armson. Just trying to save you some headache. Lots of ways to help the hobby, OP, and this is not one of them. Way to paint a giant bullseye that says "anyone with rare frogs, please immediately blacklist me because I clearly have no idea what I am doing!" though...

None taken. Thanks for the post.

[Swampfox]

I like you. You have a great attitude.

Your questions are questions that many people in this hobby ask and get no answers in return. I wasn't trying to (seriously) dissuade you from doing whatever you like as far as your enjoyment of the hobby goes...more like laying out the path as it currently exists.

On that vein, one more word of advice. Don't get scammed. I was absolutely amazed to find the number of people who claimed to have every animal under the sun until it came time to actually pair up animals. Then the excuses and shady business about "my friend has them right now" starts. My decision (not to be the right path for everyone obviously) was to walk away from that side of the hobby. I started not to be able to answer the fundamental questions about why I was pursuing certain types of animal. Giving away what I had was the best decision I ever made for my animals and my enjoyment of the hobby. It allowed me to obey the "golden rule" of the hobby: keep what you love.

[Armson]

Well i like you too francis marion the way you messed with the british was awesome!

[Swampfox]

A fellow history buff? Be careful, this is how bromances begin...

In before all the posts that are about to come between our budding internet friendship!

[Philsuma]

Swamp Fox is dead on. I used to know his name as we lived fairly close to each other when I had a condo in Tamarac.

THIS is 1000% important advice. Do not CHASE rare frogs. If you do, and are not in the 'in crowd', there is a 90% you will get burned in some fashion - money taken, sexed frogs wrong, sick animals ect ect.

I know you were asking about these in the future tense, but this bears stating for all the other people reading this thread

This, and many other rare species are....'if you have to ask about them......you're not ready"....

[Armson]

History buff!?!?!?!?

I spend a lot of time down in North Carolina.....
http://www.nc-wreckdiving.com/WRECKS/U352/U352.HTML
Best pic ....
http://www.chris3d.com/html/photography ... tyPhoto/0/

Putting my hands on that wreck gave me Chills.

And I got my wife this for Christmas....

[album]786[/album]

Half the fun of going to Costa Rica,Panama or any other South American country would be the history. (Well except Colombia I would go there for the Cocain....Coffee! For the Coffee!)


Hope I didn't just give you a Broner.



Just looked up the Disney Swamp fox series....
Did you know Leslie Neilson was swampfox. That blew my mind.