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So I've been looking to incorporate fans in all of my vivs, but I'd like to make them as invisible as possible. Keeping the fan parallel with the top was sort of what I was looking to do. So naturally I loaded up my favorite design software.. MS Paint 
What I am going to attempt to build:
![[Image: fan_idea.png]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fXLDvAaWy14/UPoSEw_V9tI/AAAAAAAAAUQ/WoZNwngKGXI/s800/fan_idea.png)
Mounting:
![[Image: fan_in_rim.png]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-W8LxVJOs8BM/UPoSE-JbPvI/AAAAAAAAAUY/oWabMe8EOv0/s800/fan_in_rim.png)
And how it would sit in viv:
![[Image: tank_layout.png]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vBThwOlIb74/UPoSExx6uUI/AAAAAAAAAUU/FxmK21Vl6yo/s800/tank_layout.png)
It's obviously not going to blow across the entire tank, but it should provide a good downward stir to prevent CO2 from building up along the bottom.
Another option would be to make it with a small fan, and make it small enough to sit on an existing vent. It would draw the humid air from the tank and push it back down through the vent. This, in theory, should avoid massive loss of humidy being that we aren't drawing air from any other source(outside the tank). And, it would be totally outside the tank, so no need to drill for cords.
What do you think? Any issues forseen?
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Do you want more circulation, or more ventilation? That will answer a lot.
I'm not sure how you can have a fan totally outside a tank and still draw humid air [i]and[/b] push humid air into a tank.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
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With the small box built around the back of the fan(as above), the fan would be drawing air from the same direction of the output. It would be drawing the humid air from in the tank and pushing it right back out into the tank. If the fan was outside of the tank, say sitting on top of an existing vent, it would still be pulling air from the tank through the vent, and then going back out into the tank through the vent again (rather than pulling outside non-humid air and pushing it into the tank).
My thought is that having the fan sit on the existing vent may cause an increase in humidity loss due to circulation naturally drawing in ambient air through the vent, but would be much less than if it were drawing non-humid outside air.
My intention was simply to provide a manner in which you could get fans into a tank without drilling, etc, and have them be unobtrusive, or completely invisible..
I guess the million dollar question is exactly as you stated above - what is really more beneficial to the frogs? Ventilation, or circulation?
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I see. yes, if the fan is only drawing from a totally enclosed area with no ventilation the humidity will remain at acceptable levels. If you have ventilation and circulation you will draw outside air in which should be less humid. A timer is what you need to think about. In my only viv in which I care a bit about plants I used to have a small computer fan which blew outside air for an hour a day. The viv is 160 gallons and no longer has use of the fan.
There is circulation enough for the frogs in most all situations if there is lighting being used. Thermals /convection will happen. I have to think the occurrences of CO2 issues are about on frequency of frog drownings.
The plants are what actually are helped by circulation and ventilation, not so much the frogs.
I now have zero fan use.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Interesting. The plants are really secondary to me, and ultimately there to make the frogs feel more at home, so I suppose it comes down to plant choice. When it comes to building vivs I try my hardest to think of the frogs, rather than wow factor, so my intention was to provide an optimum environment for them. I hadn't thought of the convection piece, and I am assuming that if there are enough plants in the tank, there will be significant CO2 uptake.
I think the "all frogs NEED circulation" mantra may have gotten wedged in my brain from previous time spent on "other" forums 
Maybe I'll abandon the idea for now, since all my vivs are already vented.
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dysphoria Wrote:...
I think the "all frogs NEED circulation" mantra may have gotten wedged in my brain from previous time spent on "other" forums ...
"All frogs are already getting circulation when you add heat via a light on a vivarium and open doors" may be a better mantra.
I also think frogs first over plants.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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Fans / air circulation are essential to the Orchid crowd. A LOT of plants and most all Orchids need it. Like Rich says, large scale fan use is kinda secondary to the frogs, but I can't help but think that certain species would enjoy the air movement.
Like any husbandry issue /detail, adjustability is the key. Those reefer power controllers and variable speed settings are important with fan use. I also like the idea of a fan 'unit' that sits outside the vivarium for a variety of reasons. I would picture the entire fan -in/out chambers to be self contained and therefore just circulate 'viv air" and thus keep the relative humidity fairly stable. The variable speed settings combined with adjustable venting on the actual glass top would be the way to go IMO.
Fans = not just a husbandry toy.
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RichFrye Wrote:dysphoria Wrote:...
I think the "all frogs NEED circulation" mantra may have gotten wedged in my brain from previous time spent on "other" forums ...
"All frogs are already getting circulation when you add heat via a light on a vivarium and open doors" may be a better mantra.
I also think frogs first over plants.
I use the example of a lava lamp to visually show how heat can move stuff much heavier than air. There's movement in lighted vivs. Jewel orchid movement, but not much higher on the difficult orchid scale.
I don't own any orchids. My dad has some on his kitchen window sill.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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If someone needs a fan and space is at a premium it might be worth looking into piezoelectric fans... Basically a little strip of material that vibrates when a current is applied, can get them very small I believe.
I recommend running fans on timers at intervals. Once the air gets moving in an enclosed space like a viv it will continue to swirl for awhile. They are good for plants, but I also believe they benefit the frogs and help with keeping excessive mold/bacterial growth down. Probably benefits the frogs respiration too as long as you don't go overboard and dry out the viv.
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I'm curious to see how this approach works out for you. I have been thinking about altering one of my vertical magnetically mounted fans to a horizontal orientation. I've mounted a blower (aka squirrel cage) horizontally, but not a standard fan. Looking forward to seeing your implementation.
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