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OK, everyone,
Let me first say that I have now read enough on this forum to understand that in having a mixed tank I might as well be the devil in the eyes of the dart frog community. Just to keep the record clean I am a self employed 40 year old business owner who really just wanted something organic for my desk. I've always enjoyed south america so when i saw some pictures of vivariums I decided to add one next to my nine square feet of monitors, which of course led to the dart frogs. When i purchased my little frogs there were all different types of froglets mixed in the same tank and I asked the person selling them if it was OK to keep them all together. He said "yeah you shouldn't have a problem" so being a person who likes diversity of course I picked out two blue ones, a green one and a yellow one.
With that being said I'm looking for 1) some direction on why having this mixed tank is such a bad idea if i have no intention of every rasing tadpoles into adult frogs (if they were to breed). 2) I have really enjoyed these little guys so far and just want to try and get some information of what steps I can take to keep a succesful tank with my mixed frogs that may be different than all of the other normal dart frog care requirments.
I really didn't post this just to try and piss people off. I appreciate anyones comments or advice.
Chad
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Hi Chad and Welcome to Dart Den !
When you say, the 'Devil' you are definitely taking it a little extreme. We do have some outspoken members and viewpoints regarding your issues but we also have a small handful of members that do indeed keep mixed species vivariums - active on this very forum, right now even !
Since you are indeed bracing yourself...that means you have already done some research here, right ?
Did you read this thread ? viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4470
I think it's safe to say that most of the old timers and senior members (high post counts and not nessa old) feel very strongly about safeguarding our hobby. When I say 'safeguarding" I do NOT mean snobbery or elitism. There are quite a few members here with a STAGGERING amount of blood, sweat and tears invested in the hobby and helping AS MANY other people enjoy it as well. That vested interest cannot be overlooked or mistaken for elitism, as I will testify that it is most certainly not.
Rich's videos, while funny and somewhat tounge in cheek at points, also contain very accurate information and viewpoints that many of us share.
To answer your first questions quickly, then hopefully you will post back and we can continue to discuss...
1. Frogs outlive people. Seriously. They absolutely outlive the interest of most new hobbyists - .8 to 1.5 years, but also literally outlive their owners. I've had frogs WILLED to me. Bequeathed ? That means the older, senior hobbyists are most often called upon to take care of disinterested hobbyist's frogs and some mistakes and 'messes'. Often, it is not fun.
2. Unless you are 100% sure of sexes, you WILL be surprised. Even veteran hobbyists mistake sexes on tiny frogs....often.
3. Different species grow at different rates and attain different sizes. It's very common for a larger size frog to bully and suppress a smaller tank-mate and disease and death occur at a rapid rate.
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I have always kept mixed tanks. If you would like any info feel free to PM me. I no longer get into the bickering on this topic on the forums. It is much more pleasant and more information can be exchanged via PM.
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Philsuma,
Thank you for the link to the thread. Funny thing is, that is the very thread that brought me to your forum after doing some google searches on mixed tanks. Also this was the thread that brought me to beleive that I would be looked upon as the devil after reading many of the comments. I am already a part of a pretty opinionated group being a falconer for many years so I understand people being heated about their opinions for something they care deeply about. a long standing joke in the falconry community is that the only thing two falconers can agree on is that the third one is wrong. Moving on from that, thanks for the welcome to the board.
So aside from just "culling all the frogs in my tank" as was sugested in the thread you refered me to is there any advice you could give me along the lines of what i need to do to keep my mixed tank healthy and happy outside of the normal of what needs to be provided to dart frogs?
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90% of my recommendations would begin with:
1. Your enclosure size should be large - larger than one commonly used for one species, for example. Using a loose rule of thumb - 1 adult frog per 10 'gallons' of size....I'd double or triple that. So for 3 -4 frogs, I'd recommend @ 70-100 gallon 'fish tank" size. You mention an office tank, and I'm gonna assume you can't come close to a large size ?
2. Experience with dart frogs or possibly equivalent (other frogs). I'd recommend 1 year or more experience with a single species before trying a mixed species viv.
some thoughts.
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Philsuma Wrote:90% of my recommendations would begin with:
1. Your enclosure size should be large - larger than one commonly used for one species, for example. Using a loose rule of thumb - 1 adult frog per 10 'gallons' of size....I'd double or triple that. So for 3 -4 frogs, I'd recommend @ 70-100 gallon 'fish tank" size. You mention an office tank, and I'm gonna assume you can't come close to a large size ?
2. Experience with dart frogs or possibly equivalent (other frogs). I'd recommend 1 year or more experience with a single species before trying a mixed species viv.
some thoughts.
Ok, point taken on the tank size piece. It's not a reality for me to keep a 70 gallon viv on my desk (the one I have now is probably around 15) so if that is the case I may need to look at spliting up my frogs anyway.
The experience with dart frogs piece is still a bit confusing. All my frogs are what I have read to be "beginer frogs" and I do have experience with maintaing humidity, heat, diet etc for amphibians so i guess i lose the connection on what i need to be doing different besides monitor their needs and make sure they are fed that would takes years of experience to understand? I'm sure i'm coming off like a jerk (i'm not trying to trust me) but i just don't get what is so much more complicated (aside form their small size) about dart frogs than the keeping of any other animal that has serious husbandry constraints. Are these problems that I should be expecting things that will start to apear as the frogs mature or are there things that I should be wary of right now in the present?
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No worries Chad, I get ya. Experience is important. Sometimes stress manifests itself in odd ways that someone not familiar with these particular animals would not recognize. Sometimes bullying occurs and leads to rapid weight loss and even this is missed, as the inexperienced owner thinks the frog is eating and doing 'ok' when in reality, it's in declining health.
Think of a mixed species enclosure as like a lawnmower. Not a gas mower, but one that takes that funky mixture (get it ...mix-ture) of gas and oil, to run right. Sure, you could just use it as a new owner and not care about the fluid levels..yada, yada. Do you kinda get the point ?
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Philsuma Wrote:No worries Chad, I get ya. Experience is important. Sometimes stress manifests itself in odd ways that someone not familiar with these particular animals would not recognize. Sometimes bullying occurs and leads to rapid weight loss and even this is missed, as the inexperienced owner thinks the frog is eating and doing 'ok' when in reality, it's in declining health.
Think of a mixed species enclosure as like a lawnmower. Not a gas mower, but one that takes that funky mixture (get it ...mix-ture) of gas and oil, to run right. Sure, you could just use it as a new owner and not care about the fluid levels..yada, yada. Do you kinda get the point ?
Makes more sense. do i run it at 50:1 or 35:1 to make it run right. Or just run it into the ground and then scratch my head when it broke. Good analagy.
So for now, while my frogs are young and growing are there any precautions that i can be taking aside from just spliting them up now? I've read that the problems with bullying tend to start when the frogs mature. is this the case or should i be watching for this now? And if I need to take extra precausions now what does that look ike?
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post some pics...we can assist better with some pics of your enclosure and the frogs.
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is there a post pics instruction thread? or can i just paste in the IMG code from photobucket?
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you could use your 'bucket or just post here on DD directly
Should you wish to be able to upload your pics directly from your Computer....it's as easy as selecting the "Upload attachment" file right below the post text block...it's light brown in colour. Click the "Bowse" button even thought it doesn't "seem clickable" and find your file on your Computer. Then click the "add the file" button to the right of the "Browse" button. Finally....click the "Submit" button.
To recap:
1. Click "Upload attachment" tab under the comment box.
2. Click "Browse" button
3. Find your Chosen file on your Computer
4. Click the "Add the File" button
5. Add a comment/description of the image
5. Click "Submit"
P.S The above is strictly for posting a pic to a simple thread or other posting. It should not be confused with a Gallery or Album posting, although they are just as easy to do.
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Hey the tank looks nice. It looks like your temps are at 82F by that gauge on the glass? low to mid 70s are best. I would add some leaf litter and maybe a plant or two that would grow under the other two currently in the tank. I would only keep two frogs in a tank that size so I would really think about seperating them.
-Dan
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that azureus in the middle looks pretty skinny, might be sick, might be stressed, might be hungry. Some leaf litter will help them have addtl places to hide, some more plants will offer the same, this will help reduce stress and promote mocrofauna.
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What really needs to happen now is there needs to be the most stress free environment possible for those frogs.
If they are actually getting fatter I can not fathom how bad that Azureus could have looked when bought.
There are a number of really good threads on quarantine and all that goes with it.
I'm sorry, but the tank is lacking in rooted plants, correct temps, leaf litter, hides, etc. What do you dust with?
The fact that a little tinc would climb all the way up into an upper corner is another red flag.
Fecals and proper quarantine are the real topics you need to read up on ASAP.
My bluntness has nothing to do with my personal feelings about mixing. I'm being objective about your frogs' situation , so please do not feel demonized here Chad. Simple facts are between the irresponsible person who sold you the mix and the frogs' situation now the frogs really need some help, quickly.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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pnwbare Wrote:Hey the tank looks nice. It looks like your temps are at 82F by that gauge on the glass? low to mid 70s are best. I would add some leaf litter and maybe a plant or two that would grow under the other two currently in the tank. I would only keep two frogs in a tank that size so I would really think about seperating them.
Yeah i've been having a hard time keeping the temps down if the light is on. if I leave the lights off it stays right around 75 so I have been looking into some LEDS to replace the light that I bought when i originally set it up. I've come to the realization that I am going to need to seprate them so I am trying to decide what to do with the two extras. I really dont have room for another tank on my desk (the whole reason i got them to begin with) so I will probabaly just get rid of two of them.
Thanks for the heads up on the temps.
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1. The enclosure is too small for 4 frogs. 2 would be my reccomendation
2. The waterfall in the center makes the entire substrate mush. Waterlogged substrate will not allow for microfauna to propagate and will kill most plants.
3. The enclosure is a 'Vertical" and is better designed for small 'thumbnail' type frogs. Even though smaller frogs will 'roost' up high especially at night, all three species you have are considered to be more terrestrial or heavy bodied frogs and would enjoy a flatter, wider tank.
4. You have no leaf litter or much 'visual barriers". Pretend you are living with 3 other roommates in your teens to early twenties. Would you want to live in a loft apt or would you do better in a place that had many separate rooms and bedrooms so that when things got tense, you could just go to your room or a different part of the house and not have to see your fellow roomies ?
5. These little frogs look so happy go lucky, right ? Far from it. There are stressors, aggressive behaviour and bullying going on right now. I guarantee it. That's the biggest misconception with these animals. Since there aren't scaly, tooth filled and have claws ect...then they must be pretty easy-going and 'communal'. Nope.
6. Temps of 80F are too hot. I'm thinking your light fixture and hood may be throwing off too much heat. 70's are what you want.
Whomever sold you those frogs did you and those animals a great disservice. I'd like to know who it was.Impulse buys and 'first time" experiences aside...we were ALL there..... we're here to help now. Please consider changing some things quickly - some small size frogs like you have, can die within a week from improper care.
Do you know how to culture fruit flies and properly dust them ?
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RichFrye Wrote:What really needs to happen now is there needs to be the most stress free environment possible for those frogs.
If they are actually getting fatter I can not fathom how bad that Azureus could have looked when bought.
There are a number of really good threads on quarantine and all that goes with it.
I'm sorry, but the tank is lacking in rooted plants, correct temps, leaf litter, hides, etc. What do you dust with?
The fact that a little tinc would climb all the way up into an upper corner is another red flag.
Fecals and proper quarantine are the real topics you need to read up on ASAP.
My bluntness has nothing to do with my personal feelings about mixing. I'm being objective about your frogs' situation , so please do not feel demonized here Chad. Simple facts are between the irresponsible person who sold you the mix and the frogs' situation now the frogs really need some help, quickly.
No worries I don't feel attacked or demonized by your comments at all. I'm a big boy so I'm not worried about blunt answers as long as its what is best for the frogs. All of your information is good and right on point with what I am looking for. I dont have any Tincs in the tank, but I get your point about them climbing up to a corner. However they all do climb up the waterfall in the back from time to time during the day.Not sure if that is normal or not. I'm taking some time to go out and buy some more small rooted plants today (not sure where to find the leaf litter) and am leaving the lights off until i can find an LED solution. I currently am dusting with Rep-Cal phosphorus free with VIT-D. The picture of the Azureus is from right after i brought them home and it is slowly gaining so weight. all of the frogs looked like that when i got them so I just figured it was normal for little froglets to be skinney.
Thanks again for all your input i'm looking into all of your sugestions, and i'll post a pic when i get some more of what i need in the tank later today.
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Azureus are tincs, just so you know. They are likely all climbing because they are all stressed to hell.
You need to also read up on supplements because your frogs are lacking there also. You are missing many required vitamins.
I would suggest reading every beginner pinned topic you can. There's just a ton of stuff you are not aware of. At this point keeping them together is absolutely counter-productive and will likely result in death/s.
Quarantine is the first topic. But in the mean time,
keep the lights shut off .
Look for pothos which is a low light/almost no light plant.
Put a ton of clean leaf litter in there.
Find any cave like hides you can .
Figure out how to separate the frogs which may include giving the 'odd balls' to someone ready for them.
Get needed supplements.
Turn off the 'waterfall'.
Buy springtails.
Find a vet who can do , and is experienced with dart frog fecals.
Keep reading.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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