Dendrobates tinctorious "Lorenzo" pics

[Philsuma]

I'd pull em - for safe keeping. Too many potential egg snackers in there.

[joneill809]

Yeah I pulled them and treated with MB. They deposited about six inches from the Petri dish I had dropped in there. I moved the dish to the location they chose.

[joneill809]

Yesterday was a good day. Observed courting most of the day. I have not figured out how to ID the two females easily yet, so it's difficult to tell if they are rotating with the male or not. All three are near each other most of the day, but usually one female will pair off with the male while the second monitors from nearby. One of the females:
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All three courting, females out front, male in the background:
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Male moves to the front left:
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One female hops up to an upper ledge and monitors, but does not interfere (sorry for the fuzzy pic, they are hanging in the darkest part of the viv):
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The pair courting, female left, male right:
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They ended up depositing on the leaf litter again in the spot where the petri dish was the day before :lol:. I put some fresh magnolia leaves in to make it easier to pull eggs in case they keep avoiding the petri dish. The first clutch of 3 eggs does not appear to be developing. The second clutch of 4 eggs looks like it's dividing, so I think at least three are good eggs:
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The blue is the MB - I put a drop from a micro-pipet on the leaf and misted and the MB is oozing around. I've done this with success on my Azureus clutches so we'll see how it works out here. I'll take a look at this clutch again later today and see if there's any further development. I'll try to pay closer attention to which female is depositing as well. It is tough to tell them apart deep in the shadows of the viv

[DianeCarter]

Hi Jim,
Congrats on the eggs!
As far as ID'ing the females, from your photos, it looks like you could look at the right eye to distinguish between the two. On one female, the yellow almost completely surrounds the right eye--probably 75%. On the other suspected female, it's much less, more like 50% or less. Of course they may have changed since you took these pix, just my observation from these pix over time.
Your photos of the eggs is phenomenal!!! Keep posting, please!
Diane

[joneill809]

Thanks Diane! I have been using my 100 mm macro lens for the frog and egg shots. It makes the frogs look huge. thanks for the help with their crests! I have been looking at their noses for easy to spot differences but man are they tough to figure out on the fly when they are this small in the dark at the back of the viv lol. It's funny but they are much bolder now that they are breeding. Out and about much more, but they still hop for the leaf litter if you approach the tank too fast.

I've been trying to get more recent crest shots of the females. I have to sort through them all but I will post more if I find some good ones. They deposited three more eggs yesterday so that is 10 for the week. Right now 7 still look ok. I'm having trouble getting good pictures since they keep depositing on the leaf litter. Lots of shadows and low contrast

[joneill809]

Looks like one egg of three from the first clutch is good:
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Sorry for the fuzzy pic - it's hard to focus on the egg when it's on a leaf I'm keeping an eye on the other two clutches (they deposited 10 over three days, then stopped), but it's a little early yet on the other 7.

[joneill809]

Three wrigglers so far. Keeping an eye on three more that look promising but they angles on the leaves make it hard to see.

Two days ago:
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Same egg today:
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Two others from the second of three small clutches:
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No additional deposits this week. I reworked the bottom of the viv a bit providing more deposit sites with smaller petri dishes. I'm trying to coax them off the leaf litter so I can manage the clutches better. The male was calling today while I was making the changes and a female is in one of the petri dishes tonight checking it out. We'll see if they like it

[Philsuma]

Lorenzo's just may be one of the least represented populations - Tinc wise, in terms of numbers in the hobby.

What do you think ?

Bill in FL and Kris in NC have some, but I don't believe they have that much 'production'.

Lorenzo's = the Standard Lamasi of the Tinc world. I kid. I kid...

[joneill809]

I agree - Lorenzo's are just not well represented in the hobby, and I think they should be. I'm not sure why, maybe it's because they take a little longer to get going, but man what a cool crest. And the fact that they can be variable and throw a black ghost periodically is really going to be exciting to see.

I got mine from Sean Stewart (Kris got her latest group from him too, but I don't recall where she got her original 2 from). My understanding was Sean got his from Mike Castigliano and Julio (via UE). I did check with UE and they have a pair but they have a long wait list and it was not clear if they were currently producing. There just are not enough folks in the US keeping them. It seems like Martin Haberkern (tinctorius.ch) has the EU pretty well stocked up. He's got 4 lines of Lorenzo going and a breeding pair with a black ghost.

I definitely have a 1.2 and I'd be willing to break that up if I could locate another confirmed male (so yes if anyone out there has an extra male, drop me a PM). The fourth is still a mystery - not calling, small toes, not chunky, so more time in isolation for him / her to bulk up. I'm starting to lean toward a skinny female, so we'll see.

[joneill809]

I'm down to one viable embryo from the first set of mini-clutches. The last one is still wriggling, but I'm not sure it will pull through. Here's a close up from a few days ago:
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They were depositing again yesterday after courting most of the prior day. They refuse to deposit in petri dishes. I put out several on the viv floor, but they retreated up into the background where I think they may have placed a clutch. When I pulled the dishes from the viv floor they returned to depositing in the leaf litter. Here are some shots of the deposit. The two were rotating over the clutch, moving around under the magnolia leaf litter. The first shot starts with the female under some fresh magnolia leaves (they are molding over a bit):
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The male rotated in:
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[joneill809]

First tad! :mrgreen: This came from the first set of mini-clutches (3-4-3) deposited three days in a row 2 weeks ago. This one came from the middle clutch.
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I think there is a clutch up in the background (no way I'm getting at that one) in addition to this one from yesterday that I pulled today:
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[frogface]

Yay! Tad looks good!

Mine came from Bill, via Under the Canopy Farms. Bill's Lorenzos originally came from Sean Stewart in the early 90s, I believe. One of Sean's current breeding males is one of the two frogs I got from Under the Canopy Farms. I traded a male for a female that came from Julio and was also a Bill Lorenzo I believe. She died in 9/12. I now have 3 froglets from Sean that are UE/Bill Schwinn(Sean's original import).

Clear as mud?

eta: Bill doesn't have any Lorenzos right now. If all goes well with mine, he will. I have what I think is 2.2 but really only my older male is positively sexed.

[joneill809]

Looks like the gills were absorbed over night:
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The new clutch is still looking ok. I am trying Marcus' @ SNDF recommendation to use tad tea (dark tea shade) to mist and control mold. We'll see how it goes:
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Thanks for the info Kris - I'll start putting together a chart Exciting times!

[joneill809]

The first tad died 2 days after hatching. Sad picture, but I thought I should document what it looked like the following day after my last post:
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I was disappointed, but not surprised. I did not anticipate a tadpole from the first few clutches so that was a pleasant surprise. The next clutch is progressing well, with 5/6 eggs developing.
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I washed a gallon bag of magnolia leaves and put a fresh layer down since they continue to spurn petri dishes. They are laying again tonight, so we'll see how it goes. The male was prepping the site:
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While the two females were watching. The dominant female:
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The subordinate female (who happens to be scrappier than the larger female):
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I can now tell them apart based on their crest colors, so I'm getting better at figuring out who deposited. I think the smaller female deposited a tiny clutch in the back of the viv on old leaf litter that I cannot get to easily. We'll see what happens to it. They appreciate the fresh leaves and took to them immediately, so I am placing them in easier to reach areas.

[BcsTx]

Jim do you have a mag leaf under the Petri dish with a coco hut on top? I tank raise my tincs, use a simple water dish for them to deposit in. They typically lay in the coco hut but when it has eggs in it will lay on pothos leaves.

[joneill809]

Jim do you have a mag leaf under the Petri dish with a coco hut on top? I tank raise my tincs, use a simple water dish for them to deposit in. They typically lay in the coco hut but when it has eggs in it will lay on pothos leaves.

Hey Beth! I tried the Petri dishes on the magnolia leaves and that drove them up into the background. As soon as I removed the dishes they went right back to the leaf litter. They deposit under a cork bark ledge/hardscaping - I have to shine an LED flash into the deposition area to get pics - it's a well planted and heavily scaped viv so I thought a coco hut was redundant in the location they were selecting. I'll pick up some huts on my next supply order and give that a shot, for now, I don't want to mess with them too much because they are dropping clutches on top of the magnolia leaves in their cave.

Eventually I'll let them tank raise. I've been pulling the first few clutches to keep a closer eye on them. I let my azureus and bakhuis tank raise / morph out froglets in shallow ponds for FB access. I flush the vivs about once a week with 1 to 2 gallons of fresh water which keeps the FB pretty clean. Here's an FTS of the current Lorenzo viv:
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They deposit against the back wall in the shadows. I do need to work on the front water area. I've been refining my designs based on my azureus layout which has a much larger water area where I've been able to morph out froglets in viv. I don't have as much flexibility in this layout that I have there, but I think I can do a quick retrofit with some small cork bark bulkheads to eliminate some rocks.

I've been working on a new tank with a better designed cork bark bulkhead:
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Anyhow I think I have some ideas on how to do something similar in the front of the lorenzo viv without disturbing them too much. Of course the new viv is much nicer with a siliconed in vertical cork wall and a nice sloped entry, but hey, iterative builds right?

[frogface]

Mine really did appreciate huts to hide in and lay in, in addition to all the hidey spots in the tank. I bet they would move to the petri dish if it was inside a hut. Try to find or make them with smallish doors. Bill taught me that.

Your tad looks a lot like mine did when they died, if I'm remembering correctly. Maybe check back over on my old Lorenzo Clutch Watch (over there).

[joneill809]

Thanks Kris I'll take a look!

[Philsuma]

I'm sorry Jim. I DO read every single post of yours but sometimes I miss some crucial things (also Stu's hand-raised Histos for another example).

I ALWAYS use a glass dish with any cocohut. I just automatically assumed that you had a dish / removable laying surface under each and every hut. My bad.

Another way you can 'fool' them is to place their fav mag leaf on top of the glass dish under the hut and eventually wean them off of the leaf by removing it entirely.

Yeah, Tincs and Tinc types will also 'lay better' with a dish under the hut - it holds moisture better and that in itself makes them select it over just leaves and then couple that with the protection and security of the coco hut overtop of everything.

[joneill809]

Thanks Phil. I was using petri dishes only - no coco huts. I've tried to create hardscapes with caves that would serve as more integrated looking bowers and that has worked with my azureus and red galacts, but my bakhuis and lorenzos won't go near a petri dish. Both are depositing fine, they just prefer to deposit somewhere other than a dish.

I'll try a coco hut soon, but for now they are depositing consistently on the magnolia leaves and I'm managing to pull those pretty easily. I pull the eggs/leaf, cut the leaf to a reasonable size, and place that clutch in a petri dish. I put the petri dish in a 2.5 gallon tank with a moist paper towel bottom too keep the humidity up. I cut the glass top to include a 2 inch vent on one side. Those serve as my incubators so I can keep the humidity up.

I'm trying to move the incubators to a cooler location. Martin at tinctorius.ch had noted that he had better egg survival rates when kept cooler (high 60's) than the rest of his collection (70's). I don't think I can get them that cool though.