Tincs - male to male aggression

[joneill809]

I heard two distinct calls from the viv, one fast buzz and a second creaky buzz that I had been hearing for a while. Tonight was the first time I had heard the faster call. I then caught a flash of frogs tumbling around the tank. I grabbed my iPhone and a flashlight and videoed the two males locking arms chest to chest wrestling for several minutes while what I suspect was a female sat by watching. The largest frog that I suspect is a female was also nearby watching but not closely engaged.

I spent this evening setting up a temporary tank and I pulled what I believe is a 1.1 from the bakhuis viv leaving behind another suspected 1.1. I had heard of female to female aggression, but this was pretty interesting to see two calling males in a tussle.

I'll upload the video to this thread once I edit it. How common is male to male aggression?

[joneill809]

This is the first video. The first suspected female is on the upper ledge in the first part of the clip. As you pan down the largest frog (suspected female) is sitting on the leaf litter watching the males fight.
[youtube]L09e7v4Se-s[/youtube]

[joneill809]

Here's a longer video of them wrestling. This runs for about 3 minutes.
[youtube]4QrqePtaeBA[/youtube]
I tried to break up the fight after this video by opening the viv and shooing the males up to their perches, but they resumed fighting soon after. I pulled the smaller suspected female and the male with the larger patch on its nose. They are in a separate temp tank now.

[frogfreak]

Hi Jim,

From my experiences, they were fighting for breeding rights and your female was waiting on the sidelines for the winner. (Hierarchy) I've seen this many times with our groups of Tincs.

The majority of the time, this the only time I see males fighting. Afterwards, the dominant male will mate with the female and generally you don't see them fight anymore unless the sub challenges the dom again. I've seen that as well and sometimes the challenger can take years to get up the nerve to challenge the dom, sometimes sooner.

My Alanis did this, the sub challenged the dom after 2 years of him breeding with her and won. He's now the dom in that viv. Interesting behaviour for sure!

[joneill809]

Thanks Glenn! This went on for about ten minutes and when I could not break it up I separated them. It sounds like you had success letting the males sort it out. How long did the wrestling between you alanis last? Since the bakhuis appear to be 2.2 I figured the best course was to separate but it sounds like letting this play out a bit for a 2.1 would be ok as long as all animals were maintaining their weight.

It was really neat to hear the two distinct calls and see them wrestling and calling. I had to mute the video because my kids were shouting in the background. I'll try to get a clean clip of the toe calls.

[frogfreak]

Thanks Glenn! This went on for about ten minutes and when I could not break it up I separated them. It sounds like you had success letting the males sort it out. How long did the wrestling between you alanis last?

It depends on the sub(s) and when he chooses to give up. :lol: I have several groups of Tincs and get wresting from time to time. I have never seen any harm come to a frog. Since breeding season has begun, I've seen more wresting as of late between the frogs. Ironically, the worst aggression I've seen to date was a female BYH kicking the crap out of her mate in a 1.1 setup! hock:

Since the bakhuis appear to be 2.2 I figured the best course was to separate but it sounds like letting this play out a bit for a 2.1 would be ok as long as all animals were maintaining their weight.

In your situation 2.2 could be a little more difficult. They may pair off into two 1.1 groups or both males may want a single female (It's looking that way) You will probably get female- female aggression too, although you already have one on the sidelines. Only time would tell...

I setup a 4.3 group of Pats about 9 months ago and they're doing quite well after the initial battle. I never had any breeding from that viv and now they're all going full blast! Separating them into two 1.1 groups is def an option but I like prefer watching how things play out. It's very fascinating behaviour and brings the viv alive IMHO.

It was really neat to hear the two distinct calls and see them wrestling and calling. I had to mute the video because my kids were shouting in the background. I'll try to get a clean clip of the toe calls.

I bet, and this is why I prefer groups. Nice video!

[joneill809]

Thanks again Glenn! They had their overnight time out and I put everyone back this morning. We'll keep an eye on them over the next few days and see how things develop.

[Philsuma]

They are just like 'people' - they have their own personalities and form dynamic relationships.

[frogfreak]

Thanks again Glenn! They had their overnight time out and I put everyone back this morning. We'll keep an eye on them over the next few days and see how things develop.

No brawls when you put them back?

[joneill809]

Not yet. I fed them just after I put them back in - all seemed well. They seem to get scrappy at dusk when the main lights go off and the moonlights are on. The males start calling then. We will pop some popcorn and setup in front of the viv for some MMA frog action tonight

[joneill809]

Alls quiet tonight. Bit of a stare down, but no calling, no action other than clean up of random flies in the viv.