Opinions on how my new viv is coming along.

[Dan1990]

Well its been a while and I'm still having plant issues. Lol

But here is a few pics for an update.

I'm a bit concerned that they look too skinny. The are eating well and I've not noticed any signs of aggression. So I'm hoping I'm just being paranoid. But thought I'd get your guys thoughts on how they look.

[joneill809]

They mostly look young to me - I would guess under an inch .... maybe 3/4"? Tinctorius froglets can look skinny quickly between meals - as long as they are getting enough flies in a Viv this big you should be ok. If not I'd either try a slice of banana in a consistent spot to concentrate the flies or put them in a smaller grow out until they are 1.25 to 1.5 inches where their weight is more stable. They will fill out more as they get older.

The Viv is looking great! What are you getting next?

[Dan1990]

I'm thinking I will just concentrate on this one species. They are young well under an inch. So that's good to know.

I'm still looking for something to grow in the back right corner and have not got anything growing yet.

[Philsuma]

dust heavy , feed heavy. i'd dump about 50 well dusted flies in there every other day. Make sure you have good quality fresh supplements.

[Dan1990]

I've probably been dumping 150 every other day lol
I'm useing herptitvite once a week and rep-cal calcium +d3 twice a week. They usually get one non dusted feeding a week.

[joneill809]

How are the froglets doing?

[Dan1990]

Doing good active and eating. I do have one that is smaller than the others but seems healthy otherwise.

[Dan1990]

Dart frogs feeding: https://youtu.be/0NNDYb-U098

[joneill809]

They look good! The little guy in the back may just be a late bloomer or from a different clutch. In cases where they hide in the back, I may dump flies out front for the more aggressive feeders then sprinkle or blow flies into the back to give the less aggressive eaters something to hunt. Nice frogs!

[Dan1990]

Well the little guy is dead this morning

[joneill809]

Sorry to hear that Dan. I'd place it in the fridge in case you opt to have a necropsy done. In the meantime I would gather up some fecal samples and send them off to Dr. Frye (or your local vet if you have easy access to an exotics vet) and check the parasite load. Other than that it could be a variety of things including a weaker frog, stress, etc.

You can overnight fecal samples to Dr. Frye - he can check and provide guidance on medications that may be required.
http://milanareaanimalhospital.com/index.html

The other three still look robust and are eating well?

[Dan1990]

Thank you.
Yes the other 3 still look healthy.
He always was smaller and did not seem to grow as quickly as the others did. I still feel like I failed him in my care though.

[Philsuma]

Dan,

There may have been not much you could have done. In Nature, this is survival of the fittest. Same in the vivarium, but magnified.

The herpetoculture argument is that weak or 'ill bred' froglets should be actively culled. Every runt, problem feeder, every possible genetic detraction. We have a tendency to 'baby' all these offspring and try to raise up 100% of a clutch.

I'm not saying I disagree with any of Jim's suggestions above, but keep my theory in mind for a full perspective. The combination of a weaker froglet and increasing stress from the other frogs, did it in, IMO. You COULD have separated it but again, maybe it was destined to be runty and you would only be prolonging bad genetics.

In terms of 'feeling bad' or neglectful as a human caregiver...sure, I can sympathyze. I still have issues with winning a tiny ceratophrys from the Philadephia Herp meeting back in 1988 ish and putting in a glass fish bowl with no covered top and barely wet moss. That did not go well, as you can assume.

[joneill809]

*Edit - Phil beat me to it - here's what I was about to post*

It is tough losing an animal. Honestly there are cases where some animals simply fail to thrive. I've grown out plenty of froglets and there are some little ones that just don't do well and crash. When you think about it, our artificial rearing methods select for a lot of animals that simply would not have made it normally. We pull eggs, cup rear, encourage feeding of weaker froglets...as an anecdote, when I pulled eggs from my Azureus and cup reared I could produce 20 to 30 froglets per month from that pair. When I allow the parents to tank raise, I get 1 froglet every month or two.

I'm not passing judgement on our rearing methods, just pointing out that in a lot of cases we end up with "weaker" animals. I pull eggs from my less common morphs since in many cases we simply need more animals produced, or the clutch sizes are so small and infrequent that they need more attention. That said, there's something to be said for tank reared animals.

Anyhow, don't beat yourself up. Monitor your remaining animals, consider fecal exams. You can also look into swabbing for BD and RV, but that is less common in CB animals. I agree with Phil - it's likely stress and failure to thrive, but if the remaining animals begin to decline I'd look at testing.

[Dan1990]

Thank you. I will keep an eye on the rest and if I see any change ill send off samples Dr. Frye.