Dart Den

Hi Rich,

What a neat project. Congratulations. Just wondering what you have learned so far about large enclosures such as supplementation, pest control, getting fecals, etc. Also, I would be curious about quarantine and reusing the vivarium if you discovered a diseased animal. I know that with smaller vivariums people recommend throwing everything out or disinfecting. This seems like a very painful option with a large enclosure such as yours.

Please keep posting pictures and updates,

Marcos

Hi Marcos,
Thanks.
I do fecals and quarantine before adding any frog to a viv. This way I have a very good idea of what the state of health of the frogs going into an enclosure is. I also Panacur about every ten days , so worms are not an issue. Any frog with an apparent health issue after being placed can be caught without too much effort. Heck , I caught three froglets in under a minute and a half, total time, from the Uberviv this week. Problems arise when someone puts a frog laden with coccidia, hook worms, lungworms, or any of a number of bad stuff into an enclosure, (sometimes one that is already occupied with perfectly healthy frogs) without doing a proper quarantine or having fecals run.
With all of my larger enclosures I have found the frogs settle in right away, no wall climbing or looking for cracks to escape. The females have their territories and kind of stick to them.
Supplements are easy. I supplements every time I feed. I throw a handful of dusted FFs in the areas I see activity. Hitchhiker bugs are also a help. No pests in the viv that I can see causing any trouble.
I plan on having this enclosure up and running for no more than two years.

Rich

RichFrye Wrote:Hi Marcos,
Thanks.
I do fecals and quarantine before adding any frog to a viv. This way I have a very good idea of what the state of health of the frogs going into an enclosure is. I also Panacur about every ten days , so worms are not an issue. Any frog with an apparent health issue after being placed can be caught without too much effort. Heck , I caught three froglets in under a minute and a half, total time, from the Uberviv this week. Problems arise when someone puts a frog laden with coccidia, hook worms, lungworms, or any of a number of bad stuff into an enclosure, (sometimes one that is already occupied with perfectly healthy frogs) without doing a proper quarantine or having fecals run.
Rich

Rich,

Frog newbie (first frogs next week). But I'm curious. You use Panacur every 10 days on all your frogs? That is what I read that as.... Are parasites that common? And shouldn't a few treatments erradicate them? Seems to me that if you have good quarantine procedures and don't add any new frogs, you shouldn't have to worry about new infestations.

Rob

Hi Rob,
Welcome.
Yes, I use Panacur every ten days or so. Have been for three years now.
There are many ways Darts pick up parasites. Shedding is not a predictable thing and state of health remains constant for none.
Here is a post by my brother explaining a few thoughts .

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=86
Rich

RichFrye Wrote:Hi Rob,
Welcome.
Yes, I use Panacur every ten days or so. Have been for three years now.
There are many ways Darts pick up parasites. Shedding is not a predictable thing and state of health remains constant for none.
Here is a post by my brother explaining a few thoughts .

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=86
Rich

Hmmm... That was a long post, but I think I got out of it that if I check my frogs for parasites and they are clean (or can be treated and remain clean for a few more checks), then they can be introduced into a clean permanent home and not treated subsequently. The scary part is getting parasites into the vivarium, where they can linger for years. Although it wouldn't hurt to check fecals every so often anyway... That makes sense to me.

As an orchid grower, if I had only one pesticide to use and had to apply it weekly, I'd be really concerned. Pesticide resistance is a serious issue, and we need to rotate chemicals with different modes of action to prevent resistant strains. Antibiotic resistance is equally as prevalent and I think everybody has heard that by now... So, I guess I'm a little concerned that you are using Panacur exclusively. That has to lead to resistant parasites. For example the malaria parasite is now virtually completely resistant to the first drugs that were developed to treat it. Is there another antibiotic you can throw into the rotation? Does Dr. Frye have a position on this?

Rob (wrong kind of doctor for this...)

Hi Rob,
You did read the line that I have been using it for three years now, right?
How long would you guess before resistance problems showed up, if there were to be any?
Yes there are a number of other dewormers that work well also, if resisitance were ever a problem. No problems so far.

Rich

Also Rob, my brother does touch on the resistance thing in the post.

Rich

RichFrye Wrote:Hi Rob,
You did read the line that I have been using it for three years now, right?
How long would you guess before resistance problems showed up, if there were to be any?
Yes there are a number of other dewormers that work well also, if resisitance were ever a problem. No problems so far.

Rich

Yes, I did. That is what worries me... I don't know how long resistance would take to show up, but I'm certain it will happen eventually. Do you actually have tests to show that the frogs that have been treated for three years still reduce their parasite load after a treatment? If you do, and it still works, don't let me stop you. You certainly know more than I do about frogs. And your brother's point about the fact that resistance can occur is no reason to avoid treatment is absolutely correct. I worry about relying on only one form of treatment, that is all.

My specialty is genome biology and cancer (particularly drug resistance in cancers, one form of which was the subject of my PhD thesis many years ago...). My personal experience with plant pests tells me that I can see resistance to some pretty nasty pesticides after only a few insect generations. Rotation is the key to control, in plants and cancers, too. I can assure you that if you use the same drug long enough, eventually something will evolve resistance. It may take years or decades, but it has never failed to happen. There are no perfect cures. Some pretty good ones, but nothing is perfect short of 100% lethality. Bleach is good, but it would be hard on the frogs...

Anyway, not a vet, not an expert, but I'd be more comfortable in my own collection if I had a backup treatment available. Is there a second drug that you or your brother might recommend? Of course you would use the drug with the least side-effects most often, and I guess that would be Panacur, but if there was a second choice with only slightly more potential for side effect, I'd probably use it occasionally.

Just something to think about, and I'll go back to lurking...

Rob

Rob,
Not sure how long it will take either, if ever , to see any resistance. Yes we do tests all of the time and I do have a large number of frogs that have been tested since I started with Darts.
Worse case scenario, Panacur , at some time down the road, stops being effective . Next best dewormer, then the next. Then after that I am guessing that the resistance trouble with Panacur may no longer be a problem ( many years, decades, whatever, after rotation ). There are enough dewormers out there that if there were a problem, by the time we ran through them all I would very much doubt that there would any longer be any resistance to Panacur, the one we started with years and potentially (probably) decades past.
When we start seeing any problems with Panacur (our favorite) we will switch to another dewormer. I will post this when it happens.
Good questions .

Rich

A link to the progress.

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=613&start=0

Rich

An up-date.
I found a 6th froglet today.
All seem very robust, very active, very cool.
WaaHoo.
Rich

Superb Mr Frye simply superb!

Sell it to me!!! please?....i'll be your buddy

Rich,
Do you think your success with the Darklands is attributed to having them in such a large enclosure? I have talked to other pumilio breeders that really think having some of the less common morphs in smaller vivs is the reason people aren't having the success with them.
Mark W.

Hey Mark,
I am not sure if they need that much space or not. I have breeding with all of my pumilio and some are in vivs around 30gal. All of the vivs I have pumilio in are very lushly planted with many broms to choose from.

Rich

Hey Rich,

How are you lighting that big viv? (sorry if it's already been asked and answered, feel free to just point me to a link.)

Robb

Hey Robb,
Two, 4ft shop lights. Four T8 Philips Cool White Plus bulbs.

Rich

Just a "production update".
11, ...."but mine go to 11".

Rich

OMG Rich! I was just reading this thread again and thought about asking for updated pics of the uber viv! any chance for your old English bulldog of a mate????

Paul,
I will try to catch some mating rituals in the next few days or so.
What? No catch on the Spinal Tap reference?

Rich