Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

[cbreon]

I guess if the purpose is to keep frogs in glass cages, how much information is really needed? This is not a conservation effort and never will be. I personally like information, but understand that in reality, it doesn't matter too much.

Justin, again, lets not let perfect get in the way of better. the best practice should be knowing, and keeping record, of where your frogs came from. to illustrate my point, why not just mix your Siquirres import with rich's Siquirres import, after all, they're both from Siquirres...

Animals that can be traced should be worth a little more. I know I wouldn't buy f1's or f2's if someone couldn't answer some general questions about the line... For that matter, do you think you're new imports would be worth less/harder to sell if all you knew was they're red and blue pumilio...

[cbreon]

I know quite a few fish that started from 2-3 fish, on of then has been in the hobby since the 1940's.

I guess if the purpose is to keep frogs in glass cages, how much information is really needed? This is not a conservation effort and never will be. I personally like information, but understand that in reality, it doesn't matter too much.

Eventually when importation stops, either due to restrictive laws or loss of wild populations, all we will have left are captive animals. If these animals are not managed to keep healthy populations, we (realistically our grandchildren) will lose the opportunity to enjoy these frogs in little glass boxes.

But I imagine that line originated from 2-3 fish of the same origin, no?

[Sherman]

I know quite a few fish that started from 2-3 fish, on of then has been in the hobby since the 1940's.

It's going to hard to find anyone willing to argue that that is a good model for a taxon management strategy.
It is not an argument against disseminating information.
So...yeah.

[Roadrunner]

Why are dogs and cats and cheetahs still around? If inbreeding and outbreeding lead to extinction then most of the animals out there wouldn't be there. How do you KNOW they will become extinct in captivity if we don't "manage" them right? How do you KNOW managing them right isn't just breeding them w/ close locales and trying not to breed brother to sister? These populations have expanded and contracted and been separated and then reconnected. We no longer need some of the genetics needed in the wild. How will we know what genetics are being passed on and what's "needed"? These animals started changing, adapting to a different environment as soon as they were no longer in the wild. They were exposed to new pathogens, etc. and started adapting to our little glass boxes. The predators and pathogens that shaped these animals in the wild has changed. Their gut fauna has changed over relatively few generations. Trying to say that there is only one way to do it is speculation since we just don't know. Someone could inbreed and keep the animals alive and producing for 15-20 years each and be in better shape than someone mixing lines and coming up w/ coccidia. There are lots of different ways to breed animals. All are acceptable depending on circumstances and what your trying to accomplish.
My problem is that y'all are making it too complicated. There are 5 "types" or more of blue jean pumilio. Some have mixed Frye line and Nahn line. Those are mutts and any line should be able to be "mixed" w/ those offspring to produce a "mixed" population. Some people line breed frye line and some line breed Nahn line. Now there is also Mark Peppers "lines" and EU "lines" and now there are new CR "lines". All of them are "blue jeans" but only some have line info attached and newbies just want a pair of "blue jeans". Which one do I have and how do I breed them? I give up!!!!!! The sheer division of lines and morphs will cause most people to give up. What happens to frogs that have lost their lineage data or been mixed? Should they be thrown out? All this will lead to more and more imports because we are not satisfied w/ how others "manage" animals.
Saying lines w/ locale data and lineage info should be worth more will lead to more collections from the wild(or lying) as long as you "value" some animals over others.

[BluePumilio]

That's the thing, we are not managing a species for reintroduction. I don't know a single person in the hobby set up for that.

I know quite a few fish that started from 2-3 fish, on of then has been in the hobby since the 1940's.

It's going to hard to find anyone willing to argue that that is a good model for a taxon management strategy.
It is not an argument against disseminating information.
So...yeah.

[Philsuma]

We are not Managing for reintroduction. ALL seasoned hobbyists are 100% on board with this. That's a sure way to tell a newb in the Dart Frog Hobby - when they start talking noahs ark type stuff.

but

Like Sherman said, when...not if...WHEN Panama turns off the spigot, we would hope that enough people cared and practice decent, best management so that we have a large as possible amount of Frogs that look like those that were found in nature.

[BluePumilio]

I agree with that statement, Phil, and I'm doing what I can to keep with that. Heck, I'm trying to do a step above.

I may seem like I'm in opposition, but I'm not, just fully trying to understand the reasoning.

Can I have a line named after me, too? Hahahaha, JK.

We are not Managing for reintroduction. ALL seasoned hobbyists are 100% on board with this. That's a sure way to tell a newb in the Dart Frog Hobby - when they start talking noahs ark type stuff.

but

Like Sherman said, when...not if...WHEN Panama turns off the spigot, we would hope that enough people cared and practice decent, best management so that we have a large as possible amount of Frogs that look like those that were found in nature.

[RichFrye]

Why are dogs and cats and cheetahs still around? If inbreeding and outbreeding lead to extinction then most of the animals out there wouldn't be there. How do you KNOW they will become extinct in captivity if we don't "manage" them right? How do you KNOW managing them right isn't just breeding them w/ close locales and trying not to breed brother to sister? These populations have expanded and contracted and been separated and then reconnected. We no longer need some of the genetics needed in the wild. How will we know what genetics are being passed on and what's "needed"? These animals started changing, adapting to a different environment as soon as they were no longer in the wild. They were exposed to new pathogens, etc. and started adapting to our little glass boxes. The predators and pathogens that shaped these animals in the wild has changed. Their gut fauna has changed over relatively few generations. Trying to say that there is only one way to do it is speculation since we just don't know. Someone could inbreed and keep the animals alive and producing for 15-20 years each and be in better shape than someone mixing lines and coming up w/ coccidia. There are lots of different ways to breed animals. All are acceptable depending on circumstances and what your trying to accomplish.
My problem is that y'all are making it too complicated. There are 5 "types" or more of blue jean pumilio. Some have mixed Frye line and Nahn line. Those are mutts and any line should be able to be "mixed" w/ those offspring to produce a "mixed" population. Some people line breed frye line and some line breed Nahn line. Now there is also Mark Peppers "lines" and EU "lines" and now there are new CR "lines". All of them are "blue jeans" but only some have line info attached and newbies just want a pair of "blue jeans". Which one do I have and how do I breed them? I give up!!!!!! The sheer division of lines and morphs will cause most people to give up. What happens to frogs that have lost their lineage data or been mixed? Should they be thrown out? All this will lead to more and more imports because we are not satisfied w/ how others "manage" animals.
Saying lines w/ locale data and lineage info should be worth more will lead to more collections from the wild(or lying) as long as you "value" some animals over others.

...and exactly how many 'dog of the day' breeds got line bred SOOOO hard that they "turned squirrely"?
How many breeds HAVE gone bye-bye?
And, how many look anything like what we engineered to our liking from, a wolf?


We can all throw up our collective hands and say "who careS!!!", and not give a shit about true new blood coming in, or old blood that trusted, vested people say they have and know...or we can manage it correctly , right off the bat and understand that true locale data is worth it's weight in gold.
The guys with a bunch of made up names may express something different , but we all know what we can do with a pedigree, and we should, should all know what you can do with mud.

Now, I'm going to check out some pics of Hawaiian auratus this morning.

[RichFrye]

For those who did not read my other post;
A tiny little WC shipment of ten frogs where the lineage is known and track-able that turns out to be 3:7 now has three absolute and separate lines, with a number of breeding options, for decades, yes decades. Three males, seven females, decades.
A big shipment from a couple/few guys that nobody really trusts, people just deal with them because they are forced to if they want/GOTTA HAVE Panama pums at this time in my mind does not equal ANY lines as the trust is just not there. And it never has been. Quite the opposite.

[Roadrunner]

And how many mutts do great? How many thousands of years have they been line bred? What are you going to "engineer" your frogs for? Healthiness and adaptability to their new environment? not like were breeding frogs to pull sleds, or chase foxes out of holes. And we don't know the genetic load with which the original breed started. All morphs are going to be different in management slightly, on how they came in. Mints are from one group. Manage by trying to pair mine w/ some bred by someone else. Simple.

I'm not excoriating you for trying to keep your lines "pure", I'm saying don't dis others for not buying into managing them exactly how you want them to. Let people mix lines including adding some of your blood and see what happens. I'm pretty sure they won't go extinct in a couple generations. and if your guy's lines don't get bred because you have to follow strict guidelines and limited stock(bad in some peoples minds) then blue leans or black jeans don't disappear because everyone had to manage them a certain way. Maybe it just takes people to be interested(easy to find mates and lots to choose from) for the group to be viable for the long run.

But how do you manage cobalts? Mix new blood w/ old? How many generations can you "track" which ones bred w/ which w/out a computer program? After 100 years of breeding a new generation every 2 years and your lineage list will be longer than a page. But if you keep a pair alive and breeding for 20 years you only get 5 generations to manage over 100 years. I think the emphasis should be put on enjoyment and realistic goals to have them last the long term w/out burning out or getting too confused by the whole process. Although it'll draw some because they get into the technical side of that. A lot of people don't want to have their frogs randomly selected for them and having to enter data to get rid of offspring, so that plan hasn't really drawn too much participation. Does that mean that our frogs are doomed to go extinct? I don't think so but hey, what do I know. I think they have had the most damage on management by people not keeping their frogs alive and breeding 12+years, wanting the newest morph, devaluing frogs because they aren't "good enough" genetically, they don't have good enough locale info, etc. Don't stop tracking or trying to manage your lines but just because you value locale info and lineage don't look down on and devalue others ways of doing things which creates such a standard that were always going back to the wild or making morphs go extinct because they aren't "good enough".
Does that make sense? I tend to ramble. I'm not putting anyone's way of doing things down just that they're all viable/nonviable in different ways.

[Roadrunner]

good time for it. there is a good documentary "sex in the stone age" on nat geo. Looks like there is another species of human we cross bred with besides neanderthals and there are probably more.

[Sherman]

Have you ever tried to explain evolution to someone that thinks the world is only 7000 years old?

I am for a management style that keeps lines as pure as possible while still maximizing genetic diversity. Science would lead us to believe that this is the best way to insure these frogs will be around for the long haul. I can not stop anyone from mixing whatever they may choose. If you want to breed your Red Frog Beach to your Cemetery Bastimentos, your Bri Bri to your El Dorado, or your "Popa" to your "Cayo de Agua" in order to test the stronger mutt theory against the outbreeding depression problem, go ahead. I am not in favor of this, but I admit, there could emerge some useful data if good records are kept. That is the joy of science.
Record what you do, keep careful records and pass them on with your frogs.
Is this really that hard? No registry, no big book of who has what that could fall into the wrong hands. Hell, don't put your name on it, but give out good information. This way the recipients of your frogs will have the information they need to decide if they are animals they want in their collections and allow them to manage the animals the way that they see fit.

[Roadrunner]

what if there are no records to give. what if the info is lost? Does that mean the animal has no place in the hobby?

There will always be animals w/out data and I don't think they should be useless.

So, keep records if you like but once something becomes too hard for the avg. joe to comply w/ we'll loose more interest and only the few will be left managing them. I'd rather have more people involved since there are way too many morphs to manage like a zoo. The people have spoken. There have been 2 or 3 registries which have not worked.

[Sherman]

Why does everyone site failed registries as a reason not to to pass on information with their frogs?
They are NOT the same thing, at all. I have never promoted another registry. I promote passing along all available information you have, in writing, with your frogs.

"No information" is information and should be passed along. This does not automatically make an animal "useless", that would only be determined by the potential buyer, based on what they intend to do with that frog.

Whether it is your intention to prove or disprove any line of thought, you need records to support your conclusion. Otherwise it is all speculation and no matter what the outcome, you will never really know.

I am not really worried so much about the average Joe right now. I do not think that they contribute a large portion of the frogs to the hobby, especially when it comes to obligates. (except for the flurries of fresh importation offspring, but that's another story.) I would like to encourage the breeders that contribute larger numbers of captive bred animals to amend their practices, and begin to give more information in writing. Leading by example will have an effect on average Joes, for the benefit of us all.

[Philsuma]

^^ agree with Sherman. Just because previous initiatives have failed, doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt others.

I will admit that this issue is going to be tough going, but it's not quite to the 'beating your head against the wall" phase.

All ideas and plans are good plans. Something will begin to 'stick'.

[RichFrye]

Until people start thinking of obligates (and darts in general) as projects and not an impulse buy because it's 'new' or different or somehow shines in a way no other frogs ever imported have ever shined in our hobby before...we are going to continue to see flashes of stress breeding followed by the frogs disappearing to the hobby if never again imported.
Pums have become disposable and that's just what's happening. As long as disposable frogs keep coming in with bad or zero info , and as long as a few other 'old timers' keep stressing how cool these new whatevers that look nothing like the other whatevers that were brought in last month are, we can expect the same ol' same ol' that's been going on here for about the past decade.
Trust in many of the links connected with the Panama pum train have been broken too many times to count and many are more and more choosing to decline offers. Fool us once, shame on you, attempt to fool us all a few hundred times , shame on those perpetuating the cycle.

[Philsuma]

"Inbreeding...Outbreeding"...these are scientific terms that 90% of this Hobby....hobby...will never grasp let alone use. And the breeding and transfer of progeny that the 15% or so of the hobby that DOES make it to the stage where they have healthy F1's to give to other people...well....that's just what it is. A Small amount. Inbreeding and outbreeding may be more applicable to zoological institutions and with more 'common' animals.

This is the same reason Frogtracks and TWI had almost ZERO traction with the hobby - most people couldn't/wouldn't understand the genetic science and here's the big one....most Americans, especially with regards to a luxury hobby such as this, are disinclined to participate in any sort of record taking and keeping. Probably a lot similar to firearm philosophy- "Don't tell me or ask me anythin' about mah Ghuns" !

Here's my personal take on Panamanian imports:

1. They come in as a 'snapshot'...like a Polaroid picture. The exact individual shipments contain animals that when separated by phenotype, are the best possible accounting of wherever they were sampled /collected.

2. In the absence of another animal from that EXACT same import shipment - this is why we are so big on using Year and often month and year...then I would attempt to find another animal that looked identical from another year, but only after exhausting the above.

3. In no way would I just carte blanche, throw together - any given Christobal, any given Blue/Aguacate/Cauchero.

Just my .02

[Philsuma]

A very good pumilio thread!