'Sky Blue" Azureus - Dendrobates tinctorious

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Nah...you just got more of a 'Billy Ray Cyrus patch' going on than I do right now...lol

Well now that you invoked the name of BRC I have to shave it off...

[Chuck Lawson]

Nah, just got to grow a proper surround for it :-)

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Nah, just got to grow a proper surround for it :-)

By "surround" I'm assuming you mean mullet?

[Chuck Lawson]

Not if you're aiming for -less- brc...

[Philsuma]

ok..back on topic. Seems these 'Sky Blues' are making headlines lately ? Funny, I don't see any on Sean's facebook or Twitter pages...

I saw these in person a couple years ago and thought they were long since selling. There's a LOT more Dart Frog Hobby problems and issues (especially lately) before we get the torches and pitchforks out after the sky blues. heh

[RichFrye]

I put driven, purposeful selective breeding for minority traits just under driven, purposely hybridizing. The main difference is it is possible to 'un-mix', although if you purposely seek out "projects" like this I'm guessing you'd not want to go back to natural, so un-mixing won't be that rampid .
Some guys continually get a pass I guess...But hey, it's all about fun and enjoying your froggies, right?

[RichFrye]

...
It would seem that "in this area" (in Brazil) implies that it was one breeding population , with "nearly solid blue/completely blue" and "lighter blue-green". But this area could be all of Brazil, for all we know.
What is not implied is the fact he saw much less of the solids than spotted azureus. "Most were the regular blue with black spots" , a "few solid".
Few = $$$= selective breeding.

[frogfreak]

To intentionally line breed frogs for 12 years is wrong. Plain and simple. IMO, those who have been in the hobby for a long period of time have an even greater responsibility to lead by example. It does not earn them a "pass"

My 2 pennies...

[Rusty_Shackleford]

This is leading by example, and the lesson is it's more important to make money than to do the ethical thing.

[Philsuma]

IMO, Sean S. does not get a pass of this breeding project. The true definition of a 'pass' would be for people to coddle, cover-up, insulate, delete counter arguments or information or otherwise show extreme bias.

None of that is occurring here. The 'Hobby" (you fine people) is actively weighing in, judging and posting your opinions just like anything else hobby-related. His 'Sky Blue"line of Dendrobates tinctorious 'azureus" with find it's own 'level' here in the hobby where it will sink or swim, live or die, by the flow and whim of the people comprising the U.S dart frog hobby. Who knows about Europe or Asia though. These guys may just be a HUGE hit there. I'm willing to bet that they are not going to be such a huge hit here...ever.

[frogfreak]

IMO, Sean S. does not get a pass of this breeding project. The true definition of a 'pass' would be for people to coddle, cover-up, insulate, delete counter arguments or information or otherwise show extreme bias.

Oh, but I think he is, Phil. If someone with a year into the hobby was advertising this, they would have their balls fed to them. This is certainly not the case here. We're hearing, he does this for us and he does that for us. He's been in the hobby for a number of years, blah, blah, blah... That is a "pass" in my book. People are tip toeing around this subject and not saying what they are thinking about it.

[Philsuma]

We don't 'tip toe' here on Dart Den Glenn... :wink: heh :wink: ...

Not a 'pass' ...but he DOES get some credit for all he's done in the Hobby. Lot's of Hobby cred ect. But again, here we all are, saying we don't like it. That is not a pass.

[frogfreak]

We don't 'tip toe' here on Dart Den Glenn... :wink: heh :wink: ...

Not a 'pass' ...but he DOES get some credit for all he's done in the Hobby. Lot's of Hobby cred ect. But again, here we all are, saying we don't like it. That is not a pass.

Sorry Phil, I should have said "on the other forum" lol Sure, he's brought a lot to the hobby, so why line breed? $$$ is the only reason and these EU imports are bad for the hobby IMO too. I hate to see someone that has done so much stoop to these levels for a buck.

[Philsuma]

I've talked to him and seen these frogs and I really don't think he is putting a ton of energy or advertising into them. I think he may just have some extra progeny or be filling in some gaps between selling other stuff. It's more of a timing thing, than a big promotional splash. I LIKE that people are talking about it though. I can't say I liked his posted answer / statement regarding the thread, but hey...some people don't like to post and/or are not good at posting or expressing themselves. Again, no pass here, just some understanding while we continue to discuss.

[frogfreak]

How much are they? :wink:

[Philsuma]

I never asked or showed interest....he never talked about selling them or promoted them (to me).

[frogfreak]

From his site:

This is a line bred bloodline of the azureus. This is not a small spot morph or a lighter blue morph of azureus. This is a bloodline that has been line bred to produce azureus without black markings.
Price: $150 each

Priced much higher than a normal Azureus...

[Philsuma]

I don't like it....would never pay it......it's not my cup of tadpole tea whatsoever .I LOVE the spotted blue tincs.

[frogfreak]

I don't like it....would never pay it......it's not my cup of tadpole tea whatsoever .I LOVE the spotted blue tincs.

Even if I liked them, I wouldn't buy them because they've been line bred for 12 years! Something that most of us try and avoid...

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Alright folks. People have expressed their opinion of whether or not this is a pretty frog. People have expressed their opinion on the science of line breeding a frog. I'm going to pose a question. Why? Why breed this frog?
According to Lotters et al. there are more than 240 species in the superfamily Dendrobatoidea. Add to that the number of individual locales, and color morphs of specific species and the number of different frogs out there is probably well over 500. Perhaps even higher with undiscovered locales in the wild that are unknown to science at this time.
So why spend 12 years creating a brand new line that is not found in the wild? Should we not do more with the frogs we have instead of creating an unnatural aberrant line? Should we not concentrate efforts on supporting and securing captive populations of those frogs which have a tenuous foothold in captivity? There are many frogs which if not for the efforts of a few dedicated keepers would totally slip away from us in captivity. So what's the motivation for creating this new line? There is only one answer that comes to my mind. Monetary gain.
I'm not saying by any means that Sean hasn't done his share for the hobby. I know better than that, and I applaud him for his past efforts. But wouldn't the hobby be better served by 12 years of effort with an under represented species, one that is holding on in captivity by a toe pad? So who stands to gain by line breeding an aberrant colored frog that's priced at 3 times the amount of the standard normal frog? Not the hobby, only one person stands to benefit from these efforts. Sean if you read this please don't take this as a personal attack because it's not. It's just meant to provoke thought and discussion. I respect what you've done for the hobby, and I wish I could work with 1/4 of the frogs you work with. But as a pioneer, a leader in this hobby you, IMO, should be working to move the hobby forward. I personally don't think that 12 years of effort into line breeding an animals is moving the hobby forward.
I just wanted to bring to light another aspect of this discussion and promote some more dialog on the subject. To discuss the ethics of creating a new line, and ask the question...why?
Thanks all.