Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

[Stu&Shaz]

Nearly Jim: Shaz and I have had a massive fight rearing this tadpole. the next month will absolutely confirm whether we have got over this hurdle or not,but one succesfully got ootw last night second will follow tonight probably. Maybe this time we'll finally put this to bed.

Jim,this has made me very aware of how much I don't know and where possibly I might have done better if I had more experience. I've always thought of us as beginners even 4 years in that's how I think. Sure we have been incredibly fortunate and have bred almost every frog we keep and have pushed hard for that,ok grafted for it. But I think I should have somehow had the ability to stop these for 18months and then allowed breeding.I did try desparately to keep them in a position of not breeding,but I also wanted then in viv after the qt period. I think my personal failing was I should have kept the sexes apart until they reached the 18month mark . It's terribly difficult I'm trying to stop them now and have almost succeeded,but when a low hits here they respond with eggs. It's that thing about having to make the mistakes one's self I guess. Mind, this particular frog has been really tricky, left me no options but to make the mistakes:until I spoke to the Peppers I have spoken to no successful breeder of summersi: simply, I haven't been able to tap into others experiences like with so many other frogs. A good example is here Jim: the den has an amazing back catelogue of info to dig at have a go with the search function Jim one finds so little about actually breeding summersi it is almost untrue,most of the posts linked are to us,it's almost like this one has dropped through the net!! Strange really they were kept as fantastica for ages but I can't find the level of detail I want,regarding breeding. I really feel this is a frog we have had to "learn" on our own and will continue to learn hopefully.

Jim ,the special thing if this works out will be passing them to some friends and them to be able to use my mistakes to move forwards. They can build on this and summersi might be able to get a foot hood here,that is my little dream.

Ha ha, bless!! I spent half an hour the other day watching the 2 boys court a female,before she laid. Ahh mate it was almost like they were break dancing at times :roll: :lol: The funniest was each male sneaking up behind the other as the female followed , the robotic hand slaps turning her and then stealing her,it actually went on for hours,hilarious to watchuddenly the male would turn round and his lass had run off with another guy( not so different to humans really :roll: ) What can I say folks need to see this here!!

take care mate thanks for taking your time out to reply

Stu

[Frogman955]

Stu am I missing something here ?
Is it 4 tads that you have morphing out or just the one ?
Only a couple of weeks now till we can sit down and have a chat about stuff.
MInd you how many times have we said that and we never have the time lmao.
Takes note to make a bigger effort this time around.
We`ll need to leave Julia and Shaz to look after things while we bugger off to the bar or something for a proper chat


Mike

[Stu&Shaz]

Stu am I missing something here ?
Is it 4 tads that you have morphing out or just the one ?
Only a couple of weeks now till we can sit down and have a chat about stuff.
MInd you how many times have we said that and we never have the time lmao.
Takes note to make a bigger effort this time around.
We`ll need to leave Julia and Shaz to look after things while we bugger off to the bar or something for a proper chat


Mike

Mike it's probably my bad mate I stuffed the pictures right up, somehow doubling up in places,you do mean summersi bro?
If so then no I haven't actually told the folks here how many have popped front legs,I have 4 from one clutch, really promising the first proper whole clutch popping fronts within 48hrs, two older that happen to be coming through at the same time(god knows how they will fair) and at this time another two from another clutch with front legs,the other one that has survived thus far is just behind,legs will pop in days or less. There is a plethera of little things and particularly the 4 from one clutch all together giving us real hope now mate,but it can still all go horribly wrong as with most of the earlier tads. The two that did make it are doing fabulous kiddo.

On mate I concur on baks,funny I was thinking of you earlier while staring at the bastis,(ok I was talking to a little kid whom came to see me,wanting springs no doubt :oops: ) . Jeepers mate I can't count oophaga kids for love nor money. Since I pulled those big kids I mentioned to you things have picked up all ways, I've been saying to shaz for a while now I think we have 3 red cemetery kids not two, but it's 4:two slightly bigger and a bit more stripey rather than spotty, two smaller more spotty,i've been mixing the two big and two small up seeing them all separately but only identifying two as the two from each size are so similar. Ruddy hopeless we are, first the christmas red head kids now can't count the pums either..

Sorry again bro I can't count me own kids it's hardly surprising I've confused you aswell :roll: :lol: :lol:

Oh got a new RFB kid last night,only saw one...promise...DOH

Ah ya gotta laugh Mike hock:

Stu

[Frogman955]

Hi Stu
You answered my question at the start, 4 tads from one clutch ............. sorted.
It is looking good though so I`ll keep fingers crossed and you can update me in person in 2 weeks time.
Damn it Stu I think we`d need 2 weeks to just catch up lmao.
I hear you on the Basti kids mate.
I went looking for a brown one I had only to find an older red one hiding in the leaf litter.
On the plus side I was having a chat the other night with a friend and he has too many red Bastis, ie they are all red lol.
Turns out he has a spare male, and I of course have a group of 4 bloody women.
So, at the MAD meet on sunday we are swapping one of my yellow females for his red male to help break his run of all red Bastis and hopefully fire up this group of women I have.
That will give me 2 groups of 4.
Watch this space as they say lol.
I`m finally having some luck with the Salt Creeks though and they have done me proud.
Just sold 5 froglets about a month back and I`ve got another 5 in the rearing viv.
And they are still laying eggs.
Also at least 2 of the 5 I sold are started turning yellow so that's a couple of very happy keepers lol.
I am going to be flooding the UK with yellow Salties lmao.


Mike

[Stu&Shaz]

Haha I think you might be right mate much to muse,2 weeks might not be enough :wink:

Yup every thing seems ok buddy with the summersi,the second has just left the water,but i'm still on edge mate,we have got so many so damn far and failed them,I'm finding it hard to not worry. Mike we have been so lucky so far with rearing,even the hand fed histos panned out it seems ( much to my complete disbelief) ,it's hard to believe we finally might have it right. Ha once again i've set my stall out ready for a fall. But it's better for folks to know rearing any frog isn't a given and possibly in this case give someone else a chance at using what might work here,as a base to kick off from. If I could spare someone else watching tads not make it,that would make all this that bit easier.

I think I know who your friend (name begins with D) is ha ha if i'm right it's a small world here,I wish you both all the luck with the exchange.

Mikey teach me something mate,with the salties do they all come out red and then some are changing to the yellow/orange type colour,is that what you are saying? Which ever way grats on the little ones!! There does't seem to be that many being bred here,a friend has some going,but I don't know of anyone else here breeding them,so good work mate !! It's really important we don't have to rely on imports from bocas and that these frogs are bred here to supply other keepers,not the constant reliance of a finite wild resourse,great news kiddo !! So many must have come in but we are not seeing them for sale you get on with the flooding buddy 8)


Some random pics of our frogs:
Lamasi




Azzie kids growth has been astounding,I got the numbers per rearing tub right down very early,tweaking the method we are building to rear a tinc,in an effort to be better and maybe reduce and possible stress,got they look like adults and only came ootw in july







Atachibakka kids





Superblue auratus



Some of our oldest red head kids at an age to breed now,but playing the patient card of preventing this from happening,in an effort to give them the best start. I'm going to be overrun soon with big red head kids which is very strange,but I feel it is important to get at least another pair or group breeding ,before parting with any





Hmm speaking of red heads,i don't think I completelt told you about this lot. At christmas we got a wonderful present of 3 baby red heads. I had enforced a break actually pulled eggs and thrown them to get there. The fallout seems to have been
that JT was very up for rearing some kids,only she didn't rear 3 a good while later I counted 4 to my complete embarassment as we were really trying to watch for any agression from Drake their farther. A day or so later counted 5,they have really done well and amongst there number are some absolutely stunning frogs with regard to markings. Jt has bred again and just this last week another came out,as she hasn't laid again and little calling from drake,i'm awaiting maybe another,I'm sure she is still feeding somewhere at the back,but I just can't see anything back there. These are the first large oophaga we have reared in the parental viv,despite the obvious crowed nature,they are doing stupidly well.












that's enough for now

seeya

Stu

[Frogman955]

The froggies are looking good Stu.
I`m thinking the D might mean Dale lol.
Nope it`s someone else who doesn`t bother much with forums, Jonathan.
But Dale had a hand in it in a roundabout way.
Anyway, onwards.
The Salt Creeks are all born red Stu.
But there has been the occasion where one changes to yellow, I`ve no idea why.
I have seen a yellow one on Dendroboard and the guy wanted 350 dollars for it hock:
From day one I`ve had yellow ones and all their offspring are red, and many stay red.
But because I have the yellow gene in my ones I regularly get froglets changing to yellow at between 6 months and a year old.
I have 2 yellows breeding, male and female, but I breed them with a red partner because I`m not wanting a yellow strain.
It`s more fun to have lucky dip where you don`t know whats a coming.


Mike

[Stu&Shaz]

Cor that is one pretty frog,for some reason I though the back legs would be darker. Yeah I remember the yellows mate,we talked alot about them way way back. I think you mixing up the genes is commendable bro,good for you. I also take your point about not knowing what one is going to get,it's way more fun,what I've always adored about the cemetery bastis.

Thanks on the frogs,ha while writing the other post I saw that big red spotty RFB i've been chasing for months and months. It is so elusive I've been starting to believe i'm imagining the ruddy thing. It was on the doors right at the top no way I was going to try and catch it and risk a 2foot drop so it's vanished again for the time being, but at least I know i'm not quite so mad as I though I was,Shaz has now seen it too. Elusive it may be,but it's a stunner Mike the most vibrant red lovely spots too,I'm stoked.

God I wish some of these RFB kids would start breeding i'm so desparate for a female or 3 we have so many in tubs and another viv set up to breed but zilch egg wise so far,it's so frustrating,but we need to be patient,it will come if they aren't all boys that is

seeya soon

Stu

[joneill809]

Beautiful Stu! Appreciate you taking the time to share. Such a wonderful variety in your collection.

Azzie kids growth has been astounding,I got the numbers per rearing tub right down very early,tweaking the method we are building to rear a tinc,in an effort to be better and maybe reduce and possible stress,got they look like adults and only came ootw in july

What's your approach for group rearing? I've been tinkering with communal tad grow outs and rearing in small groups (typically 8 to 12). With the impending flood of Robertus froglets I'm starting to consider other ideas. Would appreciate seeing what you are up to!

Thanks again for all these wonderful updates! Jim

[Frogman955]

Here you go Stu, mum getting a bollocking lol.
Note the dark legs you were asking about.
I never thought, that's mum in my avatar.


Mike

[Stu&Shaz]

Jim sorry about my English language :roll: ^^^^^^^^ hmm and probably below as well I do try but nowt will change...hey ho

Jim we would typically start with a group of 6 to 8(maybe more it depends on clutch size really) in a tub with the tincs. Once they are away, say about 8 to 12 weeks we would split that group down usually in half. Jim, I always put the smaller guys in the group into the new tub. Sure there is the potential for them to get stressed by the move, but it's minimal, really, into a glass into the tub walk out. I feel they get the new tub heaving with micro fauna and I think that gives them a kick forwards if you like.

These azzies we spilt very early down to 2's and 3's one 4 and have grown like rockets they are very robust,some of which one might glean from the pictures. My guts are leading me towards the less frogs I have per tub the better they do,maybe with the exception of singles,which may or may not react unfavourably to being kept on their own,I did that with the atachis, I had no problems,but that was much later in their lives. 1 to 2 year mark

Jim with a lot of frogs coming through as you'll have for a while I think you'll need to be ready with a good few "off view" tubs and be constantly splitting down the numbers . What I would imagine is at around the 4 month mark some will find their way out to new homes and this is almost part of that process,obviously I don't know all your plans,but I would imagine some would be held to grow on for your own breeding projects.

Jim we all have different set ups different ways of rearing, I don't think this is "the right way", but as I learn more I'm ever leaning towards smaller numbers of frogs per tub especially with tincs . I think they bully each other a bit,leastways there is potential for that, plus I also believe they need so much grub when growing that the lower stocking density helps me provide them with a consistency of available food, that to use Glenns phrase,they can graze on.

Jim I don't know whether you know I use a basic tub very cheep two vents on opposite sides 6cm diameter covered in ff proof mesh,siliconed inside and out around the mesh edges. I put a good layer of coarse orchid bark covered with part broken down leaf litter and whole leaves in as subs,all microwaved 15mins. When all is to room temp I plant with something quick growing,inch plant often cheep needs little light dead easy to grow,then add coco hut whole leaves and loads of white iso and loads of springs,leave for a week maybe two until the mold process sorts it'self out,then ready to use.

Jim one wants something very straight forwards to set up and tare down and sterilize,between batches of kids and for me with the space problems stackable aswell. The tubs being so cheep I have a stock of them always ready to go. Jim I don't think a tub will ever be a match for a viv in anyway shape or form. I don't really like the fact I use them. But I need a tool for a job that functions and that I can set up and tare down quick,on tare down I'll burn everything bar the coco huts,which get boiled for ages and reused.

The practicalities of a good few kids hitting land and very cheep simple set ups mean I feel little need to overcrowd anyone,I've outlined why I feel this is important,one simply can only guess what might morphout so I'd always rather have more homes ready than not. They can simply just sit and wait if not used,they just need a bit of water and food for the feeders and tick over.

You don't need me to say this,but I will anyway for the next guy,hammer the culturing of feeders especially springtails ,tincs need so much grub. I don't ever feel I have enough and I probably over culture by 2X. We feed springtails and ff to all tinc kids at every feed,ahh the joy of being part of a team. A side note shaz does ff,I do springs,don't ever go from ff to springtails...EVER,such a risk of mite transfer to the springtails !! We are picky on this one,she won't touch anything I am using like the mister or yeast for the springs.

Jim that is pretty much my method at this time,i'm 4 years in DO NOT KNOW IT ALL I'm learning,evaluating honing a method,it isn't perfect !!!! I'd love to have 3 or 4 in a 2foot cube viv and that viv just be used for that offspring from one set of parents,but it's never going to happen. So i'm making the best of what I have. But I am getting some fabulous feedback on the kids we are producing by folks actually seeing them not just pictures and more important I'm fairly happy with our kids(I'll never have it right mate,that is my nature) . But we seem to be on the right track and can handle a goodly few frogs without any pressure to unload quickly or overcrowd them. I think this flexibility of a home that is cheap, easy to set and tare down, is a huge thing for my frogs,even if I still don't really care for tubs,it works,simple as that.

Jim I would always try to put myself in a place where my back is really covered what ever hatches or morphs out I work to that best possible senario. what I'm saying is if i set 100eggs I'm ready with homes and food when 100tads morph and will be ready for what ever they need as they grow way before that time is upon me. I can't guarantee I can buy food here on this scale the buck stops here,we simply can't drop the ball.So I am always thinking backup:if I lost all the ff and all the srpingtails in one horrible disaster I have my iso as the back up plan not ideal but food while we get back on our feet

I hope this helps mate,i've tried to bang my thoughts over as well on why I make these choices regarding the tools used. The nice thing for me at this stage is Shaz and I have reared some tincs to full size,a bit under WC size to be fair I didn't quite get there.... close, but room for improvement, which has given us a handle on what to expect. These guys require a level of disciplin re food, which you again already know,I think folks get caught early in their froggy careers which is why we so often see stunted tincs

Being prepared well in advance is the most help I could give anyone which ever method they choose to rear tinctorious.

Good luck buddy ,you'll be fine,bit of a ramble,but some facets hopefully of use. I know where you are heading, my atachis "tank rip" and "tiger" kicked out 40plus tads in weeks !! I never thought they would all hatch let alone rear the tads!! I didn't have a clue!! But even though, with all my heart, I couldn't believe it could happen being ready meant no stress for the froggers :wink: I'm horrendously slow a complete tortoise but the graft while everyone else had their frogs and we SO SO wanted ours but just sat here culturing and reading,gave us such a start,we didn't have to struggle when it did go right..

seeya

Stu

[Stu&Shaz]

Here you go Stu, mum getting a bollocking lol.
Note the dark legs you were asking about.
I never thought, that's mum in my avatar.


Mike

Ha ha cheers bro,that's exactly who i thought of and why I commented on the legs, yes I realized she was your avatar Oh I remember her buddy,I thought she would have passed that on,but it seems not,very interesting

Stu

[Stu&Shaz]

Hi guys sorry we haven't been about much. We have kept Ranitomeya summersi for a long time now around 3 1/2 years. Finally after much trying the rearing stage to morphout is really looking like it has been cracked. Naturally I/We still have to rear them and get them to the required size,but much to smile about at this time ,i'm utterly bewildered by what is happening now,it really shows how if you keep trying despite all the sad times that life can throw something good back. Man we are so lucky to be seeing this sorry for being silly happy We have grafted hard for this one.



Ranitomeya summersi,bred in blighty from 100% genuine UE stock all not long ootw. So far so good !!!! This is just a few from around the rearing tubs as I didn't want to disturb them too much. The older two are fine and doing well growth looks right,but still a long way to go yet,the parents especially the females are big frogs now for tiny things,so we sill have much to do to get these little fellas right













seeya

Stu

[Frogman955]

Looking good Stu.


Mike

[Stu&Shaz]

Looking good Stu.


Mike

Cheers bro chuffed to bits We are !!
thanks mate
Stu

[Stu&Shaz]

Sorry not been about much,but here are some pics I wanted to post a couple of months back jees it's all moved on,there is a tiny RFb in these he;s now big and I have 4 coming to the real frog whisperer...amazing to see they are so tiny and get me in days,i'll never tire of this spectacle anyway your pics good folks in america



































seeya

Stu

[Philsuma]

Lovely!

As you can already probably tell Stu, redheads are becoming pretty common here in the states of this past year or two. Good news for the 'hobby', bad news for the $$$ speculators.

Glad to see you are still bangin' away at it. Hope you're good.

~P

[Stu&Shaz]

Lovely!

As you can already probably tell Stu, redheads are becoming pretty common here in the states of this past year or two. Good news for the 'hobby', bad news for the $$$ speculators.

Glad to see you are still bangin' away at it. Hope you're good.

~P

I'm a wreck actually buddy ,so little time with me new job and too old to be running around like a mad thing doing hard labour,but that said damn i'm getting fit :lol: I've had these for months and should be posting the stuff happening now,but hey ho .

Similar situation here Phil with the redheads I think. The concept of buying large oophaga for money is alien to me bro i'm sure you are right though it happens. I'd like to see a day where all frogs have a fair monetary value,I feel folks especially newer keepers might care more in some isolated cases and put more effort into the research,with a view to a long term commitment. It's a tough call bro because this implies a market that isn't flooded in certain species,which again implies breeders to some extent working together. Plus one simply can't predict what might morph from a given number of eggs. My summersi (doing great by the way) a case in point...2 from 40 plus tads then bam near 100% viability.

No answers bro just musing your post while trying to wake up

take care kiddo ,hope the world is being kind to you too mate

stu

[Philsuma]

here's a great thread who's photos survived the migration! Well, for the most part.