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FYI, Rich, the MOD you refer to had no role in this situation at all. I actually pulled the first ad before it even aired and then refused to subsequently publish it, though someone else eventually did, before our continued protests, the thread I started, etc., led to it being pulled. It's not always a clean process but in the end I think it started a good discussion.
I also contacted Brian C. and Mark P. about this issue as I have a real problem with folks smuggling CR frogs, esp. when folks (ie. CRARC) are working hard to open up a legal avenue for the species in question.
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stemcellular Wrote:I also contacted Brian C. and Mark P. about this issue as I have a real problem with folks smuggling CR frogs, esp. when folks (ie. CRARC) are working hard to open up a legal avenue for the species in question.
I'm hoping Brian will post at some point about them. Hopefully if he tells people not to buy them, it'll stop. I'm sure Mark was real happy to hear about it when he came back from Peru.
Adam Hess
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We talked at length but there isn't really much they can do. It comes down to us as a community.
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stemcellular Wrote:FYI, Rich, the MOD you refer to had no role in this situation at all. I actually pulled the first ad before it even aired and then refused to subsequently publish it, though someone else eventually did, before our continued protests, the thread I started, etc., led to it being pulled. It's not always a clean process but in the end I think it started a good discussion.
I also contacted Brian C. and Mark P. about this issue as I have a real problem with folks smuggling CR frogs, esp. when folks (ie. CRARC) are working hard to open up a legal avenue for the species in question.
Glad to hear that MOD only does business with Taron and sticks up for him giving rave business reviews. Not approves his adds, :roll: .
Brian's last name is Kubicki, not a 'C'. FYI
But, I'm not sure how either of them saying the frogs were not exported recently , legally will help.
We all know the deal, and we all know now some of the guys CONSTANTLY rewarding the assholes in the business end of this hobby. That won't change, because we ALL know that some guys just gotta gotta gotta have 'em , no matter who they come from, or how the got here. No?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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thedude Wrote:stemcellular Wrote:I also contacted Brian C. and Mark P. about this issue as I have a real problem with folks smuggling CR frogs, esp. when folks (ie. CRARC) are working hard to open up a legal avenue for the species in question. ... Hopefully if he tells people not to buy them, it'll stop...
What on gods' green earth would make you think or write this??
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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RichFrye Wrote:thedude Wrote:stemcellular Wrote:I also contacted Brian C. and Mark P. about this issue as I have a real problem with folks smuggling CR frogs, esp. when folks (ie. CRARC) are working hard to open up a legal avenue for the species in question. ... Hopefully if he tells people not to buy them, it'll stop...
What on gods' green earth would make you think or write this??
I should have said "Hopefully it will help"
FYI, the earth is blue and God didn't make it 8) :wink:
Adam Hess
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stemcellular Wrote:We talked at length but there isn't really much they can do. It comes down to us as a community.
Well of course it is up to us, but I still think if Brian or Mark were to talk about the issue it can help a bit. Especially Brian since he doesn't post, it would be seen as a big deal for him to take the time to talk to the hobby about a pressing matter.
Adam Hess
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thedude Wrote:I should have said "Hopefully it will help"
FYI, the earth is blue and God didn't make it 8) :wink:
Always Ok to hope, I guess.
And, small 'g' with apostrophe after the 's'...
plenty of green too... :wink:
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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Ok I am bumping this thread out of curiosity on my own.....
Lots of black jeans out there ONE they are consistent breeders but slower than most pums. I am cautious of anyone not being transparent about lineage or facilities. Anyone can say this frog is from this or that line... I have all paperwork on my frogs, why the "secrets."
IMO pums have an easier lineage than tincs ,auratus or tincs.
Any thoughts?
-Beth
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In person, I could easily tell the last batch of 'E.U' / smuggled Blue Jeans were WC and NOT CB. Just coming back from Costa Rica and seeing about a hundred up close helped too.
Now the black jeans...from pics, it's hard to tell. Looking for scars, rubbings, nematode and worm marks ect and I can't see anything discernible.
Is that what you mean Beth - WC, smuggled stuff ?
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More or less...
Was texting back and forth with Justin recently and it was discussed. Not proven, the question of Josh Lucas still "laundering" his smuggled frogs. Plus classifieds having Sylvatica Puerto Quito, grannies and black jeans for sale. The black jeans were juvies just put up a question mark that the seller was closed mouthed about where the frogs came from which IMO should not be a big deal to disclose.
-Beth
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Beth if some one came on here and pronounced you a liar and demanded the origin of your frogs would you be cooperative of their request? Demanding info certainly isn't the way to get it, especially when the person requesting the info has already pronounced the seller a liar and painted him with a very guilty brush, does anyone have info that Brads BJ's are offspring of EU frogs? And if Brad came on here and said I bought my frogs from this guy and that would everyone say OK, they had Rich's frogs? I would bet $$ to donuts Brad coming back here and saying anything would only create pages of outrage. I for one am really glad this guy is having success, isn't breeding tough frogs and in abundance the best way to reduce the demand for smuggled frogs? Wasn't that the basis for this thread?
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thedude Wrote:stemcellular Wrote:We talked at length but there isn't really much they can do. It comes down to us as a community.
Well of course it is up to us, but I still think if Brian or Mark were to talk about the issue it can help a bit. Especially Brian since he doesn't post, it would be seen as a big deal for him to take the time to talk to the hobby about a pressing matter.
I would like to see this too. I think it would be helpful for them to say something.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion 
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markpulawski Wrote:Beth if some one came on here and pronounced you a liar and demanded the origin of your frogs would you be cooperative of their request? Demanding info certainly isn't the way to get it, especially when the person requesting the info has already pronounced the seller a liar and painted him with a very guilty brush, does anyone have info that Brads BJ's are offspring of EU frogs? And if Brad came on here and said I bought my frogs from this guy and that would everyone say OK, they had Rich's frogs? I would bet $$ to donuts Brad coming back here and saying anything would only create pages of outrage. I for one am really glad this guy is having success, isn't breeding tough frogs and in abundance the best way to reduce the demand for smuggled frogs? Wasn't that the basis for this thread?
Let's actually state what really happened here Mark.
A year ago I had never heard of Brad Martin from Maine, ever. Ever.
Brad Martin recently emailed me saying he was interested in knowing if I was breeding a number of grannies. He wanted info on the frogs including prices.
He happened to have the very same frogs he was 'interested in' for sale on Dendroboard. The same frogs that went from $600 to $300 in less than a week... he HAD to get rid of them quickly...
Brad Martin was only going by "Dendrobati" on Dendroboard at this time, not signing "Brad". After I asked him why he'd be interested in my frogs all the while selling the exact same "Frye line" frogs ( exact same lines would need to be proven ) he stated that he was in fact not at all interested in purchasing my frogs as he initially inquired about , but was wanting pricing info from me and decided deceit was the best way for Brad to introduce himself to me.
Brad claimed that he needed start up money for his business and my lack of universal pricing was hurting the hobby. he decided that somehow his deceit was caused by me somehow...
When I asked who he got my line frogs from and when I asked to see the pics of all the young he claimed he had hopping around he was very fast to deny both info on the purchases and refused to send a single pic...
Now, we have someone who just popped out of nowhere claiming to be breeding all kinds of frogs with my name plastered all over them and he will not introduce himself in any fashion other that a deceitful one, he refuses to show pics of eggs, young, breeding , etc, and he thinks that somehow I'm not going to demand a bit from him.
Yes, if you are using my name for profit, jumped into the hobby over-night, refuse to show pics or prove your word, make bullshit claims of me somehow anonymously "threatening" you I will demand a thing or two.
Here's a question. If you have sought out to purchase and are now breeding Frye line, Oso, Quepos, Golfito, Baru, Blue Jeans and Black Jeans ...(let's see what pops up next) how is it possible that the first and only , only contact in that whole time from looking for all those hard to find frogs , from before working with them to supposedly having them all now breeding ...how have I never once before this been contacted by this pop up hero Brad Martin?
Recap;
Brad Martin attempts to deceive me and sneak info and who knows what else out of me as his introduction to me.
Many others can testify to the fact that once you are breeding my lines all you need to do is contact me and I will openly give my thoughts on what frogs should go for what prices at what ages and sexes. Many have no problem at all being honest in this fashion. Open honesty. Not Brad martin's way though.
Brad Martin is only one guy who has popped up on the scene out of nowhere. When using my name plastered all over the interweb, yup, I'm asking for proof. Proof of his words.
Brad Martin, who popped up out of nowhere and tried to deceive me to this day refuses to post pics of all this breeding and refuses to tell us simply who he got the frogs from to back up his word.
This sure sounds like someone I want to do business with. A guy who plasters a bunch of rare frogs he needs to get rid of quick while offering nothing but deceit.
I'm sure you look at this from some different point of view Mark, I'm quite sure . Brad has lied to me and lied about threats, hence he's a liar. Simple to understand. If it matters to those purchasing.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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Mark I will always give info on my frogs. If there were ANY questions about lineage or who i bought them from I will answer them.
Wouldn't you????
No one put me up to post, I like transparency and by damned this hobby needs it.
I did not call anyone names just asked questions which everyone should be doing especially when buying rare frogs.
-Beth
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I know you didn't call anyone names Beth but in Rich's request for info from the seller he has implied that this persons frogs are from a tainted back ground, no doubt this could be immediately put to bed should Brad who I agree popped up out of no where would explain his back ground a bit. The guy had 4 Granny's for sale at $600 (the pictures of which sure looked CB) each with Rich's name on them and a 3 footed PQ Sylvaticus from Damian (the very guy who laundered them through Europe)....rare frogs indeed, amazing that a week later all were still available,,,my guess he got a bunch of PM's saying he was overcharging hence the price drop.
I don't know why this guy would call them Frye line as I am pretty sure he knew what would follow unless they were Frye line...and maybe he was doing the right thing. The ads I have seen of Frye line animals back up Brad's statement that it makes them more difficult to sell. I don't know of anyone that would not buy a CB frog that originated from a EU import, how many out there are working with Vanzo's? Did he sell a bunch of rare frogs, 4 granny's 1 PQ Sylavticus and a pair of Paru, not really a bunch. Rich demands pics of breeding, eggs and young, well I think you can assume the first 2 when you see his ad up with all of the young. Did I call him a hero, no but in a thread denouncing smuggling and the availability of scratched up adult eggs feeders suddenly this guy gets targeted because he has a bunch of CB animals he says originated from Rich's stock. Have you not sold enough animals Rich that this could be possible, has everyone you sold to stayed in the hobby? Could a certain guy in the NE not said to Brad I can give you several pairs of Rich Frye stuff so you can mess with him after the massive falling out we had?
Granted Rich I can understand your wanting to know, perhaps asking rather than demanding would have got you the answer, and who knows my guess is we will ultimately find out. At the very least the guy seems to know what he is doing, the pics of what he has for sale look pretty good. And for the record I have never spoken to, PM'd or purchased anything from him, I too would like to know more. Obviously he is guarded about his set ups as was noted when he posted a moving thread but that does not surprise me with a business. It seems he did not want to share this info with anyone, not just you Rich. Is Brad a liar, I think the jury is still out on that one.
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Rich has amassed some information that has turned into very fair questions.
He did ask them.
Brad had a chance to respond, and did so in somewhat vague manner - as is his right, how and if he chooses. The hobby does not currently have anything close to a policy to force people to give up information. So far his pics and answers have been enough AND he has been asked a few questions.
That's where it's at and will stay, barring any NEW and IMPORTANT information.
There will not be a 'billboard' fashion of repeated inquiries and comments here unless there is SUBSTANTIAL new information to be posted.
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The opening email from Brad to me is enough to let me know his ethical question-ability. That email was posted here and removed or heavily edited.
The emails from him following cemented my thoughts. It's the whole deceit thing followed by him having no shame at being caught.
Once again, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I do hope we are pleasantly surprised one of these days...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
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I'll just say a few things...
First...
I'm a fan of transparency especially from a business and/or sponsor.
Second...
It would be nice to not have to take just the breeders word that the frogs are a certain line especially when dealing with rare/high dollar frogs that would be a prime candidate to be smuggled into the USA or Laundered through the EU. Not being able to verify they are Frye line, or any other line through other sources, especially when dealing with frogs like that would make me hesitant to buy. If the specific people the frogs came from asked to remain anonymous, then there isn't much anyone can do. I don't really expect him to betray that trust, but it would still be nice if we could get as much info about the origins as possible. I'd be more inclined to buy.
Third...
I've never bought frogs from Rich, or Dendrobati... (So I don't have a stake in this, other then not liking my buying options limited by drama caused by personal differences)
But, I just want to say that if healthy animals from any breeder are being shunned because the line originates from someone some people have a problem with, or is part of this whole silly DB vs Dart Den feud that is just petty and stupid IMO (Now if the origins of that line are a lot shadier then the other frogs in our hobby that may be a valid reason, but not petty personal differences) :roll:
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion
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I understand not giving this person any acknowledgment,
I also am a strong believer that illegal imported frogs have
No buisness In this hobby or anywhere else. However; I have
Been looking for a specific pair and would like to be made
Aware of this person. I understand "buyer beware" but why not
Help with any info. If anything maybe you can be kind enough
To PM this information or email me at teachuone@aol.com.
Thank you
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