Dendrobates tinctorious "Lorenzo" pics

[joneill809]

This is an update on the Lorenzo viv - probably fooled some of you expecting frog shots with an update to this thread . I thought it would be useful to keep up on how the viv plants are developing since it seems to be effecting the frogs behavior. Over the past few weeks they have become more bold, and I suspect it's because of the overhead cover they now have from the upside down fern that is really starting to grow in. Here's a full tank shot:
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The back half of the viv (behind the trinervula out front and the pilea "Friendship" along the lower ledge) is a large cave with about 2 to 3 inches of leaf litter. It's dark in there, and one of the Lorenzos' favorite hides.

Here's a close up of the fern. Hopefully you can see how the large frond out front throws a good shadow over the Peperomia trinervula:
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I like using P trinervula as ground cover in the front of my vivs. I typically sprinkle flies across the tinervula and it provides for a challenging hunt for the frogs. They have to climb through and over the leaves for their meal which keeps them active and out front for quite some time. This trinervula is still pretty small. It's probably got a few more months of pruning before the leaves really broaden and fill in (I have to knock back the tips and transplant the cuttings to keep the trinervula close to the ground:
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There's a nice little P orba specimen tucked under the left side of the upside down fern. I have to keep an eye on it to make sure it does not get crowded out. I really like this little plant. It's a slow grower for me, so I've only got this in three of my vivs:
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Finally two shots of one of my favorite plants, Begonia foliosa. I really like the patterns of the intricate leaves on each stem, and how they cascade down from the upper ledges of the viv forming nice hides for the frogs. This is the main specimen in the viv:
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And two transplanted cuttings from the main specimen. These cuttings were starting to droop down on the upside down fern so it was time to relocate them:
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They seem to appreciate all the plant cover that is growing in, and they tend to not stray very far from a hide. They are definitely less bold than my azureus and true sips, but they are starting to come into their own. I'll get some actual frog shots updated soon.

[joneill809]

The Lorenzos are getting more bold each week. It's a given now that you will see all four out at feeding time. I like how they line up:
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[frogface]

Are they all getting along ok in there? Now that they are older and becoming sexually mature, make sure you keep a close eye on them for aggression. Are they all eating ok?

[joneill809]

Hey Kris! They are about 14 months now. So far they have been ok together. All four were out and eating together yesterday which is pretty typical these days. I've been feeding hydei and monitoring them during meals and all are getting their share. That said, I was thinking of swabbing for BD/RV again anyway so that may be a good time to consider separating them. I just need an afternoon to be sneaky and nab them

How are you doing with yours?

[frogface]

Mine are doing well. Eating and growing like good little froglets.

[frogface]

Some pics:

Lorenzo 1



Lorenzo 2 (this one is larger than the other 2. I'm hoping female)




Lorenzo 3

[joneill809]

They look great Kris! I'm always amazed at how they look black, and when you get them in the right light or hit them with a flash all that blue just pops out! I found the display of the "Lorenzo color palette" here very interesting, especially the "black ghost" and the one with patches on its knees which resembles one of mine:
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... 5%E2%80%8E

[frogface]

Thanks for the link! Did you see what he was saying about better eggs with lower temps? Interesting.
Ok I really need some Ghosts :mrgreen:

[Bill Schwinn]

Kris, those Lorenzo are huge! what do you think, first clutch size 20 eggs clutch? I produced a few Black ghosts before from my normals.

[frogface]

They're little guys in real life. The camera adds 10 pounds.

[joneill809]

I produced a few Black ghosts before from my normals.

Hey Bill if you don't mind me asking - what was the approximate frequency of the black ghosts? I noticed there were also photos of Lorenzo's with yellow patches over the eyes instead of full crests. Did you produce those as well? Thanks!

[Bill Schwinn]

It was not good. One year I produced 3, another 2, then a couple years of 1 each. This was in their early years breeding. The rest of the time I had them there were no ghosts produced.

[joneill809]

Thanks Bill - I have another question for you I was rereading the Lorenzo profile at http://www.tinctorius.ch and this caught my eye:

The head mask is yellow to orange and the body varies from a dark blue to black in color throughout. Some animals have only a residual coloration on the head in the form of small dots or color remains altogether (so-called 'Black Ghost'). In breeding appear from the same nest of a variety of colorations.

It is striking that most breeders, the females have less pronounced or masks are all black. The ghost gene is recessive and possibly on the X chromosome. This would mean that only animals (ie females) form with two X chromosomes the feature.

Anecdotally the author indicated that all the black ghosts he encountered were female. Did the black ghosts that you produce end up being 100% female?

Thanks for the link! Did you see what he was saying about better eggs with lower temps? Interesting.
Ok I really need some Ghosts :mrgreen:

Sorry missed that Kris. Yes that was interesting. I'm looking for regional weather station data to see if we can model the temp/humidity over time and compare to the other data set I have from Sipaliwini.

[joneill809]

I have been trading email with Martin (author of http://www.tinctorius.ch) about his Lorenzos. He maintains three lines (!) and has observed that his Lorenzos do better at lower temperatures and humidity than his other tincs. He said he has better yields from clutches when night time temps hit 18 to 19C (64 to 66F) and they breed better for him under drier conditions, relative to other tinc morphs. Interesting stuff.

I prepped the best local temp and humidity data set I could find. NOAA has a decent online database that you can request extracts from, so I pulled the Sao Lourenco data that was available, 1990 to 1998. The shaded regions behind the points are moving average values - denser shaded regions correlate to more data points per period. The tables contain monthly averages and lows/highs for the month with a plot illustrating the average (line), average high and average low (shaded region) and high and low (bars) for both temperature and humidity:
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Here's a map of the location of the weather station relative to Sao Lorenco:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/22%C2 ... !1s0x0:0x0

Looks to be in the middle of a clear cut hillside, so this may not be that helpful, but it's always interesting to see the regional weather patterns.

[frogface]

I think Bill Schwinn told me to keep the Lorenzos drier than other tincs. Bill, am I remembering that right?

[joneill809]

I am fairly certain I've heard calling from the Lorenzo viv twice in the past three nights (hard to be sure with the sips next door). They are frequently active when the moonlights are on, and that's when I heard the calls. Here are some crummy cell phone pictures lit with an LED flashlight - best I could do when I thought I might have a pair hopping around. Turns out I think the two I spotted were two females, and the males are hanging out in the ledges in the upper part of the viv:
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And after they hopped apart with one retreating up to a ledge:
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I am mostly relying on back arch and body profile for the ID's. The other two (suspected males, not pictured) are noticeably skinnier, not as much of a "marble with legs". Toe pads seem to be tough for ID's...I'd swear their toe pads are black/blue - not nearly as white and identifiable as my other tincs. Kris did you notice this on your male Lorenzo?

[frogface]

I think the frogs look female in the first pic. Toepads are tough for me with Lorenzos. Even my proven male has small toe pads. I haven't really noticed anything significant about the color but I'll take a look tonight and maybe grab some new pics.

[joneill809]

One of the suspected males was out after a feeding. Surprisingly he didn't go hide like he normally does when I opened the viv doors. He's always been thinner than the two suspected females. I tried to get some shots of his toe pads but he didn't stay still for long. I think its a wash on his toes (maybe a hair bigger than the suspected females, smaller than the other male), his arch is not as pronounced, and he's a lot skinnier.
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Here's the other male (with knee pads upper right) with a suspected female (lower left):
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Their toe colors throw me off. They have black on the tips, so it's more difficult to distinguish between male and female given how small they are and they don't sit still for long:
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This is a close up of the larger male (knee pads) who has more pronounced toe pads. I'm more confident on this male ID than the first one:
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Here's an image of one of the suspected females. Both are much stockier than the other two, and they were pictured above.
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I suspect 2.2, but I was wrong with my Sips so who knows. Fun to guess though.

[joneill809]

I am growing more confident that I have a 1.2 while the fourth remains an enigma. It's got the back arch and toe pads of a female but it is thinner than the other females despite eating well. I pulled that frog this week and I'll keep it in isolation to see how it does on its own. No signs of aggression with the other three. They are very active at night so I snapped some photos with the cell phone. The females are really filling out:
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The male was lurking in the shadows. I missed a shot with him next to a female but he is a good quarter inch smaller with much larger toe pads and less of a sloped back. His neck skin looked distended a bit tonight like he had been calling but I have yet to catch him in the act:
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All three have been hanging near a Petri dish so fingers are crossed:
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[joneill809]

I gave the viv a good trimming and power wash today. After things settled in there was lots of calling with the blue lights on. I started poking around the viv and found eggs!
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First clutch so I am not expecting tads but a very welcome development!