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All this hype and push and this is what we get- only a few frogs to a few people ?
No monies or donations from me then. They are no more 'special' than any other business.
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G'day Phil.
mate I think we need to show a little patience here. The frogs world seems a fickle beast,one day one frog is popular,the next something else.It must be difficult to predict these trends. We also have caviats on what exactly Ivan can export. I have little bro ,but for me,I'm going to throw what ever I can do to help this along. 400 truncs are not small numbers,maybe there are more auratus to come,maybe the focus is on the obligates. How many large obligates do folks rear in a year? How much effort is being put in to that? I haven't answers buddy,but I really do see this as special for us all . I'll back this until utterly proven wrong,becuase I honestly believe this will be good not only for our hobby ,but for the wild individuals too. I'm hearing stories here of large obligates being taken form the wild in number,I can't back this as truth,just heresay. We the international hobby cannot just throw these chances away,they are so few and so far between. Phil I may well be proved wrong,it won't be the first time,but there has to pioneers mate,often complete madmen who just have passion for their cause. How many times do we look back at those guys and say wow were all all so much better off because of what that lunatic did. The deeds of one man can oft be traced back to saving a species. We the hobby have a real chance here to not only get some frogs that are scarce in the hobby,but help with the infancy of a project,that might lead to better things.
Buddy I( know i'm a trusting soul, I know i'm hugely passionate about these bloody frogs,so my views are somewhat coloured ,but my money says it will be a sad day both for the hobby and for the frogs if this one doesn't succeed.
I care little for what folks think of me,but lay that aside I'd rather be proved wrong and have egg on my face than not give this guy a chance to prove me wrong.Put it another way,what have we got to loose by backing him,a few bucks,some self esteem a tarnished ego... and the flip side....................what have we got to gain?
I rest my case your honour
take care mate
Stu
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Philsuma Wrote:All this hype and push and this is what we get- only a few frogs to a few people ?
No monies or donations from me then. They are no more 'special' than any other business.
I'm not sure what the "big deal" is about these Auratus and have no clue what is happening with them. Quite frankly, it's none of our business. Maybe, just maybe, they're being held back for some reason?
I'm seeing the gotta have em attitude again because they're "new" We got ours by pure chance...Laura saw them, liked them and purchased them. She had no clue how "new" they were and doesn't know anything about this organization. Nor did I at the time. Sure they're pretty, but would I be freaking out if we didn't get them, nope!
All of the other frogs that were imported are for sale right now and from what I hear they aren't hopping off the shelves. This, is a far more important IMO...
Glenn
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oh I dunno Glenn...finding out what's going on in the hobby IS our business. The business of this forum anyway.
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Philsuma Wrote:oh I dunno Glenn...finding out what's going on in the hobby IS our business. The business of this forum anyway.
I'm sure if someone was to e-mail UE, they'd tell you.
Glenn
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We tried that with the Paru import...email...info...didn't get too far. Let me see who I can contact.
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Philsuma Wrote:We tried that with the Paru import...email...info...didn't get too far. Let me see who I can contact.
Cool. All I'm seeing is hearsay and speculation. You?
Glenn
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I think everyone is most excited about the potential Oophaga lehmanni, histrionica, Andinobates and Ranitomeya entering they hobby from Columbia, but my understanding is Tesoros was basically forced to start with the less popular frogs because that is all they could initially get permits for.
The hope is those frogs will help make the future imports of more desirable species possible. From what I understand the frogs are not flying off the shelf and the whole project is on shaky ground due to lack of support for these species that were already in the hobby and/or not high on people's want list. So many of us are willing to donate a little now if it helps insure these other frogs enter the hobby later.
The auratus and aurotaenia would be the only ones I'm interested in, but I can't afford them till my new job starts, and I already have 4 female aurotaenia and a male lined up, and since I don't think the hobby will want us crossing old line with these new line, the tesoros aurotaenia don't do me much good, but I'd really like people (and maybe myself) to have a shot with the Oophaga lehmanni, histrionica, Andinobates and Ranitomeya (andinobates especially). So even if it is only 10 bucks or whatever I can afford, I'll kick a little money to see that happen for all of us. I hope others do too. A little altruism now may pay off for us all later.
Phil you're as welcome to buy the frogs available as anyone else. I don't see the problem here? Plus the economic impact should benefit the locals, and I believe they are preserving habitat also, so even if I don't directly benefit from it right now those are good things worth supporting. Supposedly we are supposed to give a crap about these frogs and their habitat (which means giving locals an incentive to protect them), so it is kinda a "put your money where your mouth is" situation. You disagree?
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion 
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Philsuma Wrote:All this hype and push and this is what we get- only a few frogs to a few people ?
No monies or donations from me then. They are no more 'special' than any other business. Wow, where is this coming from?
You just lumped them in with Dart Frog Connection and LLL Reptiles.
I still view this as a unique and very "special" venture.
Chris Sherman
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Philsuma Wrote:So it seems that they are 'selectively' providing people with these - thus allowing people to corner the market on breeding.
If so, my respect for them is gone... It's this I don't get the fuss over? ...if you only have a few and the people around you want them why bother trying to hock them online? Were they supposed to ignore the people there and sell/ship 1 frog at a time to people all over the country?
If teseros is raping and pillaging Columbia to get these frogs then OK hate, but I've seen no evidence of that, so why the hate?
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion
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"not special' does not = hate or Taron.
You guys sure jump things up.
They are a business and are acting 'business like' , that is all. No good, bad or evil...just business. Thier sustainable programe is applaudable and that's just what we hope for in a business like this.
The rumors I'm hearing is that they have provided select people with frogs and skipped over others. Chris, if you have a 100% handle on what's going on, then please post in the contrary to that info or have someone down there post.
I was about ready to call Canada for some info yesterday and realized that my last verizon bill when I spoke to Glenn was an extra $30.00 for out of the country calling...
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"Or Taron" ...Your evil Phil 
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion
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Philsuma Wrote:I was about ready to call Canada for some info yesterday and realized that my last verizon bill when I spoke to Glenn was an extra $30.00 for out of the country calling...
That's crazy! You need a new phone plan, Phil. I call people in the US all the time and it doesn't cost them a dime...
Glenn
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With comments like "If so, my respect for them is gone...", "No monies or donations from me then." and "They are no more 'special' than any other business.", I would argue that you "jumped things up". These statements are pretty condemning. By labeling them "just another business", you are lumping them in with the likes of DFC and LLL.
Now that I hear the rumor that generated these comments ("skipped over"), I understand them a little better. I do not think that Ivan is such a cunning business man. He runs his business like a conservationist. 
The heart of this seems to be "How exactly does Tesoros de Colombia and it's partners distribute the animals that are produced?"
This is a very good question. I do not have the answer. I will ask, and post the answers when I get them.
Chris Sherman
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I have spoken to Canada and have some clarification. No one was "skipped over".
There was a small number of D. auratus made available at the time of exportation. Understory Enterprises purchased them all and brought them into Canada. Some of those frogs will be kept by Understory because they are animals they have been interested in for 14 years. Understory has no desire to breed them and compete with Tesoros for market share. The remaining small number of animals were sold within Canada. This was not meant to be exclusive or exclusionary, but soley because Understory has no intention of re-exporting these frogs. Indoor Ecosystems will act as a direct importer of Tesoros de Colombia's frogs for the USA and if D. auratus are available at the time of export, then they will be available to anyone, first come, first serve.
Chris Sherman
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Sherman Wrote:With comments like "If so, my respect for them is gone...", "No monies or donations from me then." and "They are no more 'special' than any other business.", I would argue that you "jumped things up". These statements are pretty condemning. By labeling them "just another business", you are lumping them in with the likes of DFC and LLL.
Now that I hear the rumor that generated these comments ("skipped over"), I understand them a little better. I do not think that Ivan is such a cunning business man. He runs his business like a conservationist.
The heart of this seems to be "How exactly does Tesoros de Colombia and it's partners distribute the animals that are produced?"
This is a very good question. I do not have the answer. I will ask, and post the answers when I get them.
Good God , where do you get 'respect is gone' ? YOU are the one lumping Chris not me. Please do not continue to say who I am associating them with. I understand that you are mad and personally offended and trying to fire back...but you are manipulating a statement of mine pretty heavily...and wrongly. Stop.
Everything is ok but I just can't be a cheerleader for them right now Chris. I just don't know enough. I try to stay pretty middle of the road - not get too low or too high on all the new endevours.
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Philsuma Wrote:Good God , where do you get 'respect is gone' ?
Philsuma Wrote:So it seems that they are 'selectively' providing people with these - thus allowing people to corner the market on breeding.
If so, my respect for them is gone...
Philsuma Wrote:YOU are the one lumping Chris not me. Please do not continue to say who I am associating them with. To be balanced there are many good and reputable businesses out there. You never stated that Tesoros de Colombia was a bad business.
I guess my point is that this undertaking is much more than a business. IMO
Philsuma Wrote:I understand that you are mad and personally offended and trying to fire back...but you are manipulating a statement of mine pretty heavily...and wrongly. Stop. Even though I am invested heavily in promoting this, and feel strongly about these types of programs, I am not mad or personally offended. I am disappointed that rumors would lead to the statements I have read.
Philsuma Wrote:Everything is ok but I just can't be a cheerleader for them right now Chris. I just don't know enough. I try to stay pretty middle of the road - not get too low or too high on all the new endevours. All is OK here too, I understand your position. I certainly don't expect people to be mindless cheerleaders for anything.
If there are any facts that would indicate unfair play in any of the links to this chain, please let me know.
Chris Sherman
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Personally, I see no problem with UE getting the first shot at these frogs over the "new" suppliers that have since popped up. Mark has done nothing but good for the hobby for years and is a proven good guy. He and the rest of UE are the ones who developed this model and set the precedent with previous partnerships in other countries, so it seems only right that he gets the opportunity to release frogs from Tesoros prior to the newcomers. If I decide to order Tesoros' frogs (space is what's holding me back at this point), I'll definitely go through Mark and UE over others.
Another possible interpretation of the rumors that could have been taken is that individual hobbyists were given preferential priority in obtaining these. I think this is simply a misinterpretation and a reason why rumors are problematic.
BTW, information on the Paru has been presented...just because the info isn't what everyone wants to hear doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
ZG
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goods Wrote:?..
BTW, information on the Paru has been presented...just because the info isn't what everyone wants to hear doesn't mean it doesn't exist. To be more than fair, very limited information was presented with the now ending Paru Sylvatica project .
When many more questions came up than were answered we were told to contact WIRIKI where we were answered with total silence.
This can easily be cited here on DD.
I await the studies being done...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
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I like the folks at UE myself, but I will say I tried to order the terribilis morphs a few months ago. When I did, I was told they were not sure if they were coming in and just trying to gauge the market for interest. I said how many I wanted, and never heard back with a definite answer. I have sent a couple emails directly to Tesoros as well and have not heard anything.
As far as the Paru, I agree the information was vague at best. I would like to see some of the different offspring from people who had like parents, and those who did not, and see how they look in comparison. I have a like pair I acquired recently and I believe they are in the process of laying eggs now. So whenever I produce my own, I will share my results as well. If I get offspring all over the board, great. If I get offspring that look like my adults well, that's great too.
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