Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

[Philsuma]

^ that's potentially worse !

I tend to mainly trust....

Myself.

an' not too terribly many other people.

[Philsuma]

I mean if I was a Panamanian collector who was recovering from a slow year (as far as exportations go), I'd tell the buyers whatever they'd want to hear if that much money was thrown my way.

And if I was interested in flipping frogs to pocket some extra cash, I'd certainly tell you that my frogs were captive bred and were originally collected at location X for an extra $100 a frog.

Word.

[markpulawski]

Well unless someone discovered a morph of Pumilio that is dead on Salt Creek and a different locality, these are Salt Creek. Show me a cloned morph in another area and I will believe there is a chance they are something else. This morph is pretty unique and almost imposssible to confuse with anything else, I am sure there will always be a few out of a 100 that are variable.
Ash do you think these exporters are creating these colors or do you think they are going to the areas where the frogs exist people are willing to pay extra money for and collecting them?

[Philsuma]

Mark,

A lot of people are more than ok with purchasing "2012 Imports". The quest for GPS / site specific data is the holy grail of exotic animal keeping IMO, but we aren't there yet.

LOVE Chris VdL's pumilio book for instance, but there are millions of frogs and the chance that one geographic population may look exactly like a population further away, is always possible (see the escudo looking frog that JP found on the Panamanian Mainland, for instance).

If you want to trust Mike and Ray from Strictly's, be my guest, but please read the book "The Lizard King" first.

I'm respectful of genuine above average collection, import and shipping methods....and hopeful, but as soon as someone says "my frogs are 100% blah blah blah", my radar kicks in and I'm going to have many many questions to ask that person.

[markpulawski]

Finding an exact duplicate of a requested moprh is likely more difficult than going to collect that morph if you know where it exists. I would say the morph JP has a pic of has many distinct differences from Escudo, granulated, body size etc. There will always be a few variable frogs in each population that could make them something else.
Cayo Nancy would be a good question, when SNDF's sold probably 200 Nancy's in the 2 or 3 imports they did of them should they be SNDF '09 Nancy imports or is it OK to mix with other Nancy's? They came from that island but without gps data....are they Nancy's at all? They are a very specific frog but under your guidlines would not be mixed with other Nancy's, good for the captive population we hold?

[Sports_Doc]

Mark,

A lot of people are more than ok with purchasing "2012 Imports". The quest for GPS / site specific data is the holy grail of exotic animal keeping IMO, but we aren't there yet.

LOVE Chris VdL's pumilio book for instance, but there are millions of frogs and the chance that one geographic population may look exactly like a population further away, is always possible (see the escudo looking frog that JP found on the Panamanian Mainland, for instance).

If you want to trust Mike and Ray from Strictly's, be my guest, but please read the book "The Lizard King" first.

I'm respectful of genuine above average collection, import and shipping methods....and hopeful, but as soon as someone says "my frogs are 100% blah blah blah", my radar kicks in and I'm going to have many many questions to ask that person.

Phil,

I am going to have to say that I am surprised by all this.

Very silly behavior here about new animals in the hobby.

In recent years many of us have enjoyed working with escudo, Solarte, Cristobal, Rio Guaramo, Popa, El Dorado, Cauchero and many more very nice morphs of frogs.

We enjoy them no less, without their GPS tramp stamped to their backs, no?

I still enjoy for instance the SNDF/Strictly yellow Rio Guaramo pairs I bought from you.

and the Cauchero you bred so well.

I am poking at you, obviously :wink:

but I am no less disappointed.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Best,

Shawn

[Philsuma]

Oh Shawn....don't get me wrong here. I'm ok with "regular" imports. I've bought em from Marcus and Jose.

I've always been a "Marcus supporter" - Rich and I have tussled over that for years now. He doesn't hide that fact that most stuff is non site specific and won't manufacture data where there is none (as far as I know).

I just wanna make sure people don't profit and juice up the price 200% (for instance) on frogs they cannot back up fully. I would grill anyone on their claims of site specific.

In the end...I have NO problem with regular old imports. I've bought em in the past and would do so again, from the right people.

ain't nuttin' silly 'bout that in my book. :wink:

[markpulawski]

Yes but Phil you infer these are best guess imports to which I would say that is worng. Just to take Salt Creek, that is what was requested, the exporter claimed to go to Salt Creek and collect and then they sent a bunch of frogs that are phenotypical exactly what we expect are Salt Creek, which are very unique in characteristics. You would be hard pressed to claim these are not site specific frogs. Would your arguement be..you say they are Salt Creek, they look exactly like Salt Creek, the exporter claimed to collect them at Salt Creek but I don't believe any of it? Does logic and common sense ever creep back into our equation?

[Sports_Doc]

^ I agree. I believe the community here has transferred their dislike for a particular individual, onto a group of frogs.

What I can say Phil, is that the majority of what I have read here, in the 2 'heavy traffic' threads on the subject is wrong.

So from that wrong information, more and more conjecture is born, inaccurately.

That is the sad and 'silly' part I was referring to.

Now, do you or anyone else know the effort involved in this process?? to justify a 200% price?? you are quoting?

I can say this, having much more experience here then most anyone posting about this subject....

it takes a ton of effort. 6 months of planning btw, I dont know...maybe 100 emails/ communication/ thought process - intellectual equity.

then a lot of end stage planning on import/ shipping/ many hours in transit to hub airports for DASH etc.

hundreds of QT tanks that need to be 1. purchased, sterilized every other day, re-set

meds to have on stock, animals treated, monitored, sexed...

every single loss, DOUBLES the cost of the frog next to it!

then the resale nightmare of dealing with 'people' :-0 lol

Which is why Marcus is a nut job.

anyway, try it someday....so I can be sarcastic and hammer you online for a few weeks, until I can call you and get you to send me some nice animals, frogger to frogger.

Shawn

[Mantisdragon91]

I just wanna make sure people don't profit and juice up the price 200% (for instance) on frogs they cannot back up fully. I would grill anyone on their claims of site specific.

I've been lurking on these threads for a few days now and am seeing a certain unsavory trend here. To use your quote above it seems like its not okay to juice up the price of frogs 200%, but it's okay to run down other people's animals to justify your own juiced up pricing? Seems like one individual trying to cast doubt on another because they feel some of their own profit margins threatened.

[RichFrye]

Everybody who thinks they know the breeding populations on Basti, and then also the Salt Creek area breeding populations, please speak up now. Anybody want to see three or more different 'salt creek' phenotypes?

When the whole import involving Sidney started I was told I (and I had to expect the other 4 involved in our small import which will be great for the hobby...) would be getting GPS data and also info such as ;
'On this side of River 'x' we see red , on the other blue'.
That lie is just one involved with his cluster. Much more revolving around Sidney to come.
Please all, do keep rewarding liars and bad behavior in our hobby , that's how you stop it. Or, at least wait a few months until Sideny is out of the picture and anyone who lies less can step back up for the glut to follow.


It has now been way over a week since Sidney Ferrell said he just needed some time to answer to all the reports of lies, after lies, after lies. Not a word.


Rich

[BluePumilio]

No one has a problem with higher prices, I think the problem is when someone LIES to inflate those prices. If someone is straight up, they can charge whatever they want. Either someone buys it or they don't. What we had here was someone who lied at every turn. The "importer" claimed to have a import permit, they didn't. They claimed to import frogs, never did. Claimed to keep all the awesome frogs at a house next store, but the neighbors thought that was just crazy. Claimed a million other things that PROVED out to be false. Why would ANYONE reward this behavior? It's going to bite everyone in the ass. What this person did was not special, anyone could have done it. ANYONE! Get your specimens from the real importer or go to the source, the exporter. Deal with them. While they may not have 100% accurate info, it certainly isn't chalked full of outrageous lies at every turn to inflate someone's ego. I think it is clear to everyone here, especially Rich, that it isn't worth trying to decide what is real and what is fake.

I just wanna make sure people don't profit and juice up the price 200% (for instance) on frogs they cannot back up fully. I would grill anyone on their claims of site specific.quote]


I've been lurking on these threads for a few days now and am seeing a certain unsavory trend here. To use your quote above it seems like its not okay to juice up the price of frogs 200%, but it's okay to run down other people's animals to justify your own juiced up pricing? Seems like one individual trying to cast doubt on another because they feel some of their own profit margins threatened.

[RichFrye]

I'll also point out the extreme number of healthy F1 pumilio being bred and for sale or trade right now...
Take some time to look up the effects of out crossing , even from populations which phenotypically look similiar.

[cbreon]

Finding an exact duplicate of a requested moprh is likely more difficult than going to collect that morph if you know where it exists. I would say the morph JP has a pic of has many distinct differences from Escudo, granulated, body size etc. There will always be a few variable frogs in each population that could make them something else.
Cayo Nancy would be a good question, when SNDF's sold probably 200 Nancy's in the 2 or 3 imports they did of them should they be SNDF '09 Nancy imports or is it OK to mix with other Nancy's? They came from that island but without gps data....are they Nancy's at all? They are a very specific frog but under your guidlines would not be mixed with other Nancy's, good for the captive population we hold?

Mark, as I mentioned in another thread there are two, potentially connected, populations on Solarte that look identical in size and pattern to 'salt creeks.' So, to say they are 100% 'salt creek' is certainly debatable.

[BluePumilio]

Didn't some Solatare come in on this shipment as well?

[RichFrye]

Solarte (two proven locales) were "100% " supposed to , but did not.
But Sidney was the one telling me that. Got the emails to prove it, for any who may question my word.

[Philsuma]

I just wanna make sure people don't profit and juice up the price 200% (for instance) on frogs they cannot back up fully. I would grill anyone on their claims of site specific.

I've been lurking on these threads for a few days now and am seeing a certain unsavory trend here. To use your quote above it seems like its not okay to juice up the price of frogs 200%, but it's okay to run down other people's animals to justify your own juiced up pricing? Seems like one individual trying to cast doubt on another because they feel some of their own profit margins threatened.

One man's unsavory is anothers savory, I guess, lol. Very true Roman. You and I have discussed this - exotic animal marketing in person and in-depth at least twice recently. It's always been a marketing ploy to portray one's commodity as superiour to a rival's right ? You're in sales. Common sales strategy.

That's why I try to level the ENTIRE playing field. I don't currently have any pumilio to market and sell, and I'm not brokering or advocating ANY other breeder/seller/jobber/importer.I'm just putting the info out there for the consumption of the entire community, especially those who don't know how this import stuff works.

Sidney, Rich, Marcus, Strictly are all involved in the Dart Frog community in some large way. It's up to the individual hobbyist to ask questions and gather information relative to the animals they are interested in and the people or businesses that are providing them. Whether you personally like, dislike,trust, distrust or hate any or all of those people is up to you.That's all.

Great discussion here folks....important to get this info out.

[Philsuma]

No one has a problem with higher prices, I think the problem is when someone LIES to inflate those prices. If someone is straight up, they can charge whatever they want.

^^THIS.

edit: I'm NOT saying ANYONE lies, lied or will lie....I'm just agreeing with this statement.

[BluePumilio]

Well, I do know the exporter said he can offer that locale, now. Based on that and what you (and me) was told, I thought they came in. I wonder what happened?

Solarte (two proven locales) were "100% " supposed to , but did not.
But Sidney was the one telling me that. Got the emails to prove it, for any who may question my word.

[thedude]

^ I agree. I believe the community here has transferred their dislike for a particular individual, onto a group of frogs.

What I can say Phil, is that the majority of what I have read here, in the 2 'heavy traffic' threads on the subject is wrong.

So from that wrong information, more and more conjecture is born, inaccurately.

That is the sad and 'silly' part I was referring to.

Now, do you or anyone else know the effort involved in this process?? to justify a 200% price?? you are quoting?

I can say this, having much more experience here then most anyone posting about this subject....

it takes a ton of effort. 6 months of planning btw, I dont know...maybe 100 emails/ communication/ thought process - intellectual equity.

then a lot of end stage planning on import/ shipping/ many hours in transit to hub airports for DASH etc.

hundreds of QT tanks that need to be 1. purchased, sterilized every other day, re-set

meds to have on stock, animals treated, monitored, sexed...

every single loss, DOUBLES the cost of the frog next to it!

then the resale nightmare of dealing with 'people' :-0 lol

Which is why Marcus is a nut job.

anyway, try it someday....so I can be sarcastic and hammer you online for a few weeks, until I can call you and get you to send me some nice animals, frogger to frogger.

Shawn

Shawn, I admire that you are doing that for these frogs, and getting them to the hobby by investing so much of your time, energy, and money. But what does any of that have to do with the legitimacy of these frogs being site specific??

I have seen no evidence that any of these frogs are site specific except their phenotype. And how many times has everyone said you can't tell what type of pumilio you have based on looks? I get it, they do LOOK like Salt Creeks. But who brought them in? Who collected them? How does anyone know where they came from for sure?

I've talked to quite a few people on this import now, and the people who bought frogs from it are being very secretive about everything. No one wants to answer the above questions and they seem semi hostile about someone asking them. Last time I checked, this was a hobby about sharing information bu oh well. And the people that do want to talk about the shipment all say the same thing. There is NO DATA with these frogs. SNDF may as well brought them in because UNLESS ANYONE CAN PROVE OTHERWISE they are best guess frogs based on phenotype.

May I just add I don't know Sidney, and don't really have an opinion of him. So my opinion of the shipment isn't because I dislike him or whatever other question dodging BS anyone wants to claim.