Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

[markpulawski]

Because back in the 90's locality data was pretty much nonexistant....as was the internet when this went on. Wouldn't you agree Rich that over the last few years information has progressed at an exponential rate? And yes there is still not enough info available but compared to '95, '96 & '97, we are light years ahead. Back then BJ's were the only Pumilio brought in, from CR and Nicaragua...and maybe not even CR. Panamanian frogs came through the same channels most of our stuff came from back then.....the beautiful Florida Keys. I don't what Pat call them on his website but he has told me SC for last 7 or 8 years and up until probably 10 years ago did anyone even care about locality unless it meant something new was coming in. Vincentei were thought to be an odd Pumilio in the 90's, does that make them not Vincentei now?
Phil I would certainly deem this import a success, most of the top breeders in the country save a few ended up with some of these frogs. Now if 6 weeks from now they all fall over and die we can change the status but until then some of the rarest morphs in the US are now in many more collections and hopefully our genetic diversity will live on for many years.

[RichFrye]

Thanks for posting the picture Rich.

Can I ask, where that photo came from? and it's date?

Shawn

Asked , but already answered Shawn.

[Philsuma]

^^ Agree totally Mark, but we still have to keep pushing the bar higher. The minute will stand still and don't ask the hard questions and ruffle a few feathers is when we aren't doing anything worthwhile.

With effort and more and more people making demands....one day....we just may see pics and video of an importer and collectors with GPS, maps and related photo evidence.

[markpulawski]

Rich asking me to ID a Pumilio from a picture? My 8 do look like the ones on the right with granulated backs, can't really see that in the pics nor how big the frogs are, it's all relative until you can see the frogs in person. As I said Rich take a look when they show in Chicago, we would be interested to hear what you think after you see them in person.

[BluePumilio]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that in a few weeks-months these won't be rare anymore. The exporter has already offered them to anyone who will pay the cash. I just hope that everyone got them at a fair price so they don't feel ripped off the next time they come in.

Now if 6 weeks from now they all fall over and die we can change the status but until then some of the rarest morphs in the US are now in many more collections and hopefully our genetic diversity will live on for many years.

[RichFrye]

Because back in the 90's locality data was pretty much nonexistant....as was the internet when this went on. Wouldn't you agree Rich that over the last few years information has progressed at an exponential rate? And yes there is still not enough info available but compared to '95, '96 & '97, we are light years ahead. Back then BJ's were the only Pumilio brought in, from CR and Nicaragua...and maybe not even CR. Panamanian frogs came through the same channels most of our stuff came from back then.....the beautiful Florida Keys. I don't what Pat call them on his website but he has told me SC for last 7 or 8 years and up until probably 10 years ago did anyone even care about locality unless it meant something new was coming in. Vincentei were thought to be an odd Pumilio in the 90's, does that make them not Vincentei now?
Phil I would certainly deem this import a success, most of the top breeders in the country save a few ended up with some of these frogs. Now if 6 weeks from now they all fall over and die we can change the status but until then some of the rarest morphs in the US are now in many more collections and hopefully our genetic diversity will live on for many years.

Once again, please don't use the term 100% on unprovables.
Patrick MAY think these look the same. Which ones do they look like in th epicture I posted? Because I'll post even more pics showing Pat's orange and green to look nothing like the pictured frogs.

[RichFrye]

Rich asking me to ID a Pumilio from a picture? My 8 do look like the ones on the right with granulated backs, can't really see that in the pics. As I said Rich take a look when they show in Chicago, we would be interested to hear what you think after you see them in person.

My point was made Mark.

You say Pat looks at them and deems them 100% same as the old line he has.

I tell you I'll show frogs he's been selling that look nothing like those. The difference is that when I post the different phenotype to the ones you say he says look 100%, my pics of ones he's been selling look nothing like the picture I just posted. If visual inspection is what passes, why the difference between these new ones, and Pat's old ones???
100%

[markpulawski]

I agree you really can't say 100%, we have all learned the hard way with that but I will say I am convinced and comfortable with the determination. I would also have no problem with selling their offspring as SC. I don't see anyone has a problem with people selling BJ's, your may have data Rich but the 50 - 100 that came in in '09 are BJ's are they not? At least they are being sold that way, many are even mixed with your lines from what I understand and I haven't heard a peep about them not being what they were told to be.

[RichFrye]

4-22-2011 Mark Pulowski , Dendro, pertaining to Pat's original "Orange with green legs"; what Mark now calls salt creek.

..."original color were nice red & green and some still turn out that way but many also have the green replaced by gray (who knows if this is a result of captive breeding)..."

This was posted by you less than a year ago Mark, where in the picture or your group are they "nice red and green"? I see no green at all in the group which "look 100% " like Pat's originals.



http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophag ... eek-2.html

[Sports_Doc]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that in a few weeks-months these won't be rare anymore. The exporter has already offered them to anyone who will pay the cash. I just hope that everyone got them at a fair price so they don't feel ripped off the next time they come in.

huh?

The Exporter is in Panama, and he/she isnt offering them.

There were a few, darn few 'left over' frogs at the importers, that even Marcus left behind, so I assume they were in bad shape?

The great majority are NFS, and went to 2 collections in the US.

Rich,
Thats for pointing that out. I thought the pic was yours obviously, but I see your reference to Sid and date. Thanks. I was amazed at how familiar they looked.....

Best,

[RichFrye]

I agree you really can't say 100%, we have all learned the hard way with that but I will say I am convinced and comfortable with the determination. I would also have no problem with selling their offspring as SC. I don't see anyone has a problem with people selling BJ's, your may have data Rich but the 50 - 100 that came in in '09 are BJ's are they not? At least they are being sold that way, many are even mixed with your lines from what I understand and I haven't heard a peep about them not being what they were told to be.

I have zero control what people do with my frogs after they have left my hands. Those who know me know enough that I don't want my stuff mixed with other lines. My wants don't matter though, as has been proven time after time.
I've heard more than peeps about BJ lines and questions.
Remember the email you sent me after getting your (cheap) "BJs" from Josh Lucas? I seem to remember warning people about him over a year ago. Were not BJs, were they Mark? Didn't you get a picture before you bought?

[BluePumilio]

Might want to check your private messages, Shawn.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that in a few weeks-months these won't be rare anymore. The exporter has already offered them to anyone who will pay the cash. I just hope that everyone got them at a fair price so they don't feel ripped off the next time they come in.

huh?

The Exporter is in Panama, and he/she isnt offering them.

There were a few, darn few 'left over' frogs at the importers, that even Marcus left behind, so I assume they were in bad shape?

The great majority are NFS, and went to 2 collections in the US.

Rich,
Thats for pointing that out. I thought the pic was yours obviously, but I see your reference to Sid and date. Thanks. I was amazed at how familiar they looked.....

Best,

[RichFrye]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that in a few weeks-months these won't be rare anymore. The exporter has already offered them to anyone who will pay the cash. I just hope that everyone got them at a fair price so they don't feel ripped off the next time they come in.

huh?

The Exporter is in Panama, and he/she isnt offering them.

There were a few, darn few 'left over' frogs at the importers, that even Marcus left behind, so I assume they were in bad shape?

The great majority are NFS, and went to 2 collections in the US.

Rich,
Thats for pointing that out. I thought the pic was yours obviously, but I see your reference to Sid and date. Thanks. I was amazed at how familiar they looked.....

Best,

Yes, Sergio IS offering them, with price lists.

Your welcome for the pic. I keep thinking an orange and green one will pop up...

[RichFrye]

A fairly typical 'Patrick' orange and green. Looks nothing like the pic of new frogs, nor others I've seen from Salt Creek.

[Sports_Doc]

oh.

feel free to import some then.

ask for males, we need some.

:-)

[RichFrye]

You have no idea what you need until these have been in country for quite some time Shawn. But , you find that out soon enough. : :wink:


And, did you want the ones with spots on their legs? Ones with almost all red bodies with no spots on legs...or the one's Mark tells us Patrick has that look 100% the same as this shipment? Orange with solid grey legs, which used to be
"nice and orange and green"...but are not seen in any recent import photos?

[sidney ferrell]

Ohh yea! Saying you have a permit and all justin...also ask sergio for some extra male esperanzas...10-15 maybe???? Wait, maybe a few hundred more while youre at it knowing that you are claiming to be an importer and apparently well connected to sergio. I asked him if he knew justin---" quien es ese pendejo?" was his reply.. : ) if you can do this yourself then please do and save us all from another 8 straight months of stress and very little sleep( an individual calling at 6am wanting strictly frogs)

Might want to check your private messages, Shawn.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that in a few weeks-months these won't be rare anymore. The exporter has already offered them to anyone who will pay the cash. I just hope that everyone got them at a fair price so they don't feel ripped off the next time they come in.

huh?

The Exporter is in Panama, and he/she isnt offering them.

There were a few, darn few 'left over' frogs at the importers, that even Marcus left behind, so I assume they were in bad shape?

The great majority are NFS, and went to 2 collections in the US.

Rich,
Thats for pointing that out. I thought the pic was yours obviously, but I see your reference to Sid and date. Thanks. I was amazed at how familiar they looked.....

Best,

[markpulawski]

I agree you really can't say 100%, we have all learned the hard way with that but I will say I am convinced and comfortable with the determination. I would also have no problem with selling their offspring as SC. I don't see anyone has a problem with people selling BJ's, your may have data Rich but the 50 - 100 that came in in '09 are BJ's are they not? At least they are being sold that way, many are even mixed with your lines from what I understand and I haven't heard a peep about them not being what they were told to be.

I have zero control what people do with my frogs after they have left my hands. Those who know me know enough that I don't want my stuff mixed with other lines. My wants don't matter though, as has been proven time after time.
I've heard more than peeps about BJ lines and questions.
Remember the email you sent me after getting your (cheap) "BJs" from Josh Lucas? I seem to remember warning people about him over a year ago. Were not BJs, were they Mark? Didn't you get a picture before you bought?

$600 for a pair of BJ's is cheap, damn Rich how much do you charge for yours and yes I saw a pic but I seem to remember someone saying you can't ID Pums from a picture? Did you say the rest Damian brought in weren't BJ's?
I have orange and green frogs in my group Rich, actually very orange, I also have red and green and they are the same, you don't see green in the legs of those pics? Pat says they are 100% the same and I think the guy that has the most experience with them (at least here in the US) would know, think what you want Rich but they are the same frog. I can believe it, I need no more proof than that morph being requested, that morph said to have been collected and that morph looks wise showing up, for me that's good enough. Why don't you find a way to 100% prove they are something else, then you can let 100% let us know. Once you 100% prove they are different I will eat 100% of my words regarding these frogs.

[RichFrye]

I guess the bottom line here is just that.
If there are 'cheap' new frogs you gotta, gotta have ,and have no qualms dealing with an habitual liar who has messed up a lot in the hobby already, go ahead and keep rewarding this guy. It's only a matter of time before you get burned.

[RichFrye]

I agree you really can't say 100%, we have all learned the hard way with that but I will say I am convinced and comfortable with the determination. I would also have no problem with selling their offspring as SC. I don't see anyone has a problem with people selling BJ's, your may have data Rich but the 50 - 100 that came in in '09 are BJ's are they not? At least they are being sold that way, many are even mixed with your lines from what I understand and I haven't heard a peep about them not being what they were told to be.

I have zero control what people do with my frogs after they have left my hands. Those who know me know enough that I don't want my stuff mixed with other lines. My wants don't matter though, as has been proven time after time.
I've heard more than peeps about BJ lines and questions.
Remember the email you sent me after getting your (cheap) "BJs" from Josh Lucas? I seem to remember warning people about him over a year ago. Were not BJs, were they Mark? Didn't you get a picture before you bought?

$600 for a pair of BJ's is cheap, damn Rich how much do you charge for yours and yes I saw a pic but I seem to remember someone saying you can't ID Pums from a picture? Did you say the rest Damian brought in weren't BJ's?
I have orange and green frogs in my group Rich, actually very orange, I also have red and green and they are the same, you don't see green in the legs of those pics? Pat says they are 100% the same and I think the guy that has the most experience with them (at least here in the US) would know, think what you want Rich but they are the same frog. I can believe it, I need no more proof than that morph being requested, that morph said to have been collected and that morph looks wise showing up, for me that's good enough. Why don't you find a way to 100% prove they are something else, then you can let 100% let us know. Once you 100% prove they are different I will eat 100% of my words regarding these frogs.

Well, I guess I would have thought you'd get man-merantes for less than $600. You REALLY got taken. My pic jab was to enforce the fact you need to be to trust all involved, or their info is shit, and so is your frog lineage.
Simple.