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RichFrye Wrote:MyDumName Wrote:If the adults do the work of raising the tads.....aside from proper enclosure and supplementation....where does experience vs inexperience come into play as far as getting offspring? I can't speak to these paru, but my guess would be all the other husbandry that comes with harder to breed obligates. And, there are actually some intangibles that you pick up watching all your frogs day in and day out for decades at a time...
What makes these so different then the other dart frogs to get to breed? I feel your answer is vague....could you provide examples?
Like what about these is so much different then say pumilio....or other darts. Do they have the same troubles in the wild....which would mean there is something missing in captivity if they do not. Any insight into what the missing element could be?
Most darts given a pair and proper enclosure will breed.....why not these?
I've never kept this species.
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".... auratus wouldn't be the most smuggled Dendrobatid". - This is regurge from some Ed topics and I never believed it. There were times where auratus were included in shipments as 'padding' , literally live biological 'stuffing'....THAT may be believable. As to smuggled frogs that are eagerly sought out by the U.S hobby ? Seriously ? We can't give most of the 90% D. auratus progeny away. Alright, a little embellished, but really, auratus highly smuggled to the U.S hobby ? I have huge doubts.
As to $800.00 Colombian obligates being 'worth it' and the money going to all the right places due to all the effort involved ? I'm not saying I personally need to see EXACTLY where ALL the money is going to the various places, but I personally need to see where all the money is going to the various places to understand the high price points. Just my opinion.
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I will have to go into this in detail sometime next week. This week is just too crazy-busy for me.
MyDumName Wrote:RichFrye Wrote:MyDumName Wrote:If the adults do the work of raising the tads.....aside from proper enclosure and supplementation....where does experience vs inexperience come into play as far as getting offspring? I can't speak to these paru, but my guess would be all the other husbandry that comes with harder to breed obligates. And, there are actually some intangibles that you pick up watching all your frogs day in and day out for decades at a time...
What makes these so different then the other dart frogs to get to breed? I feel your answer is vague....could you provide examples?
Like what about these is so much different then say pumilio....or other darts. Do they have the same troubles in the wild....which would mean there is something missing in captivity if they do not. Any insight into what the missing element could be?
Most darts given a pair and proper enclosure will breed.....why not these?
I've never kept this species.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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MyDumName Wrote:RichFrye Wrote:MyDumName Wrote:If the adults do the work of raising the tads.....aside from proper enclosure and supplementation....where does experience vs inexperience come into play as far as getting offspring? I can't speak to these paru, but my guess would be all the other husbandry that comes with harder to breed obligates. And, there are actually some intangibles that you pick up watching all your frogs day in and day out for decades at a time...
What makes these so different then the other dart frogs to get to breed? I feel your answer is vague....could you provide examples?
Like what about these is so much different then say pumilio....or other darts. Do they have the same troubles in the wild....which would mean there is something missing in captivity if they do not. Any insight into what the missing element could be?
Most darts given a pair and proper enclosure will breed.....why not these?
I've never kept this species.
I'll try to keep this short, at least to start, haha.
Lots of histos and sylvatica came into the US back in the 90's. Not many survived. Husbandry for these frogs now compared to then is night and day. We still don't know that much about historinca/sylvatica especially compared to more common things like tincs and pumilio. Another factor is that many of these frogs came in sick and with parasites so health may factor into the hobby's success, or lack of success, breeding these frogs. Much like the lack of lack of successes surrounding the 90's blue jean imports.
Some other challeneges include the frogs general husbandry. As oppose to more common frogs, less is known about the needs/wants of these frogs. To elaborate, their size likely requires larger enclosures, their dietary needs likely require larger food items, there are indications that they may have need for uvb/uva supplemntation, there are indications that they may be more sensitive to mate selection, they may be more demanding regarding vivarium design/layout, seasonal replication (wet/dry cycling), and the list goes on....
So, one of the biggest challenges is the lack of information and experience in the hobby. As more people work with these frogs and their experiences leads to better hsubandry, I suspect they will become more prevelent and common in the hobby, but I doubt they will ever be considered "common." The only reason some of these pumilio locales/morphs are considered common is because of glut of recent imports. Otherwise, the limiting factor for obligates is the very limited number of offspring they can produce due to their demanding and lengthy breeding routine.
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on breeding:
It is indeed somewhat 'easy' to engender breeding in most correctly sexed, paired and housed dart frogs.
It is absolutely NOT easy to shepherd the progeny of the obligate species due mainly to the small size of the froglets and the nutritional requirements. Most breeders are not advanced or committed to this.
That, and the fact that obligates produce so much less froglets than most other species is the MAIN answer to the question 'What is it hard or more difficult with the sylvaticus and histrionicus" and then ADD the other info that Craig just mentioned.
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Quite a few of the Paru parished, very lengthy thread on DB titled "Dead Sylvaticus" from what I have read from others is they were extremely male heavy, besides enclosures and husbandry issues I would venture the deaths could be due to male on male aggression.
-Beth
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Stu&Shaz Wrote:First Up Chris,thanks for this thread,it is the way forward,it is a huge chance for the hobby and by god don't I want both of these stella projects to succeed!!That chance to keep the "dream" frogs is something many of us yearn for,but you are so right in us supporting the other(ha ha) dream stuff,like these Colombian auratus. I don't really think I'll ever make my mind up truly about my personal dream frogs,damn I love auratus. Anyway back to it  is this tesoros project all down to just one guy? It sounds very much like it is from your post,just fishing for conformation,tis all.If so it is astounding that he has got so far, an amazing achievement,it has to be said. Stu, I am glad you are excited about this. Spread the excitement as far as you can. Dutch Rana has access to these animals I believe.
Stu&Shaz Wrote:I'm not totally sure about not breeding these new frogs when they get here,I can't totally see why you would do this and the sentiments are fantastic,but I'd rather see them bred I think and some funds passed back to tesoros,anything to keep this project on track.
Stu I certainly do not think I can tell people how to handle these frogs. I can only express my concerns about what I see might happen.
This initial offering is a group of frogs that have amazing reproductive potential. If everyone gets the first import and goes straight to breeding (These frogs should be coming in as young adults, not large juveniles.) there is the potential to rapidly drive the price of these animals down to the point that Tesoros will no longer be able to profit from them and end up having to sit on stock. There is more overhead involved in breeding these frogs in situ and exporting them than producing them and selling them to your friend the next town over. Hobbyists can profit at a lower price point than Tesoros can. I view this as a copy write or patent issue. IMHO These unique frogs are the result of Tesoros efforts and should remain their intellectual property until such a time that they can no longer supply us with these animal. Then all bets are off. (Maybe Monsanto can inject a novel gene in there to afford them legal protection. :twisted: )
I understand the desire to establish these animals in the hobby. I intend to keep my frogs healthy for a very long time. If ten+ years goes by and I feel that my frogs are "getting old", I will purchase more from Tesoros and only Tesoros. If such a time comes that Tesoros no longer offers these frogs I would certainly attempt to breed mine and exchange offspring with other breeders.
Chris Sherman
One big methane burp from the ocean could make everything here obsolete.
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I'll bet that 80-90% of all purchasers of Tesoro frogs wish to breed them right away.
I remember several people buying groups of the U.E Varadero and QUICKLY cranking out tadpoles and promptly selling them for $100.00 each. TADPOLES.
Our hobby is very much 'production driven" and I do not think that's a bad thing, on it's face. Thank God it's not the Reptile morph /mixer crowd for instance.
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Stu&Shaz Wrote:I'm not totally sure about not breeding these new frogs when they get here,I can't totally see why you would do this and the sentiments are fantastic,but I'd rather see them bred I think and some funds passed back to tesoros,anything to keep this project on track.
Stu I certainly do not think I can tell people how to handle these frogs. I can only express my concerns about what I see might happen.
This initial offering is a group of frogs that have amazing reproductive potential. If everyone gets the first import and goes straight to breeding (These frogs should be coming in as young adults, not large juveniles.) there is the potential to rapidly drive the price of these animals down to the point that Tesoros will no longer be able to profit from them and end up having to sit on stock. There is more overhead involved in breeding these frogs in situ and exporting them than producing them and selling them to your friend the next town over. Hobbyists can profit at a lower price point than Tesoros can. I view this as a copy write or patent issue. IMHO These unique frogs are the result of Tesoros efforts and should remain their intellectual property until such a time that they can no longer supply us with these animal. Then all bets are off. (Maybe Monsanto can inject a novel gene in there to afford them legal protection. :twisted: )
I understand the desire to establish these animals in the hobby. I intend to keep my frogs healthy for a very long time. If ten+ years goes by and I feel that my frogs are "getting old", I will purchase more from Tesoros and only Tesoros. If such a time comes that Tesoros no longer offers these frogs I would certainly attempt to breed mine and exchange offspring with other breeders.[/quote]
Chris/Stu, I understand your concern for Tesoros and I think your thoughts are commendable, but I sincerely doubt that there will be enough offspring to put a dent in the demand. Even if they are able to send 100 pairs in the first few rounds of shipments (which seems unlikely), it will be at least a year until you will see offspring old enough to be sold to hobbyists. Based on the Paru and other larger obligates, there will not be many people with breeding success, especially initially. To see the type of production that your talking about would take years, and anyone breeding them will want a price comparable to what they paid. I sincerely doubt that there are enough hobbyist's production to impact Tesoros on the Historonica or Lehmani. Now, the terriblis might be a completely different story.
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Are they taking preorders on the auratus for next year? According to their facebook page they have already sold all they had to offer.
Garrick H.
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and the auratus are a different story as well.
There is no way any entity can copyright or protect against breeding. Can't happen. The BEST business model anyone can hope for is to take as big of an amount of pre-orders / collected monies and then do one big release and be done with it. Or at least be done on a big scale and have just a few animals left. Then wait a few months or a season or two and do the same with a different species. I don't see any other way to control hobbyist breeding wishes.
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I would argue that Panamanian pumilio and auratus are heavily (100%) smuggled considering there is no farm and therefore are exported under the false information of being farm raised. These Colombian (ColOMbia has nothing to do with ColUmbus) and the Ecuadorean frogs are bred to first or second generation in country so should absolutely command higher prices because these are actually legal. As far as only high priced frogs being smuggled, I would have to disagree. The $500 histrionica/sylvatica minimum price has been around for a long time. Long before the Paru came in. If the Paru were $200 the bilsa and similar looking locals still would have been smuggled when you figure you can do a trip for $1000 and still catch enough frogs to cover your expenses.
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That's a stretch argument Jeremy, or should I say a moral argument - Panamanian CITES involvement. I would very much like to see that importation CHANGE and become much more responsible. I think almost all of us would, but as to the actual animals coming into U.S Customs and being cleared with paperwork ? Hard to call that smuggling.
As to Spelling....Kolumbia, Colombie, Columbia or Colombia. There are all correct.
Brazil can also be spelled Brasil.
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I completely disagree. Panama only allows farmed animals to be exported. These are passed off as farmed to gain permits and therefore become 'legal'. You are the one saying they aren't smuggled because of cheap imports, but those cheap imports are the smuggled animals. They are coming in with falsified backgrounds. Why go there and smuggle them when the sole exporter will do it for you with papers! No different then bringing in something protected under a different name of a similar looking animal.
As far as Colombia vs Columbia, Google it. And while you are at it look at etc vs. ect. One is right and one is wrong....
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I can direct you to 'google' the definition of smuggling then, as i'm sure we can argue that you are using that definition incorrectly as well.
The point is, I agree that the 'Panamanian' model is...not...good, for many reasons.
I encourage you to accompany me to this fine venue, viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7906 where our voices may carry and we may bring back additonal information and assets to move the hobby forward.
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cbreon Wrote:Chris/Stu, I understand your concern for Tesoros and I think your thoughts are commendable, but I sincerely doubt that there will be enough offspring to put a dent in the demand. Even if they are able to send 100 pairs in the first few rounds of shipments (which seems unlikely), it will be at least a year until you will see offspring old enough to be sold to hobbyists. Based on the Paru and other larger obligates, there will not be many people with breeding success, especially initially. To see the type of production that your talking about would take years, and anyone breeding them will want a price comparable to what they paid. I sincerely doubt that there are enough hobbyist's production to impact Tesoros on the Historonica or Lehmani. Now, the terriblis might be a completely different story.
I am referring to this round of importation. It includes many fecund varieties: terribilis, aurotaenia, and truncates. It is my understanding that these will be almost, if not full grown animals. (Don't quote me on that.) So it is conceivable that these frogs will breed right out of the box, in large numbers. Not good for Tesoros. (Things that are not good for Tesoros are not good for us getting the historonica and lehmanni. See where I'm going here? Don't set up your histo tank yet. This is not a done deal.) I believe that auratus will be coming early next year. Provided these are successful, we may get the obligates. I agree that hobbyist breeding of the obligates will not have an effect on Tesoros's ability to sell frogs.
I humbly concede that the spelling of "Columbia" should be Colombia.  hock: Feel free to change the title of the thread. Thanks.
Chris Sherman
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Sherman Wrote:cbreon Wrote:Chris/Stu, I understand your concern for Tesoros and I think your thoughts are commendable, but I sincerely doubt that there will be enough offspring to put a dent in the demand. Even if they are able to send 100 pairs in the first few rounds of shipments (which seems unlikely), it will be at least a year until you will see offspring old enough to be sold to hobbyists. Based on the Paru and other larger obligates, there will not be many people with breeding success, especially initially. To see the type of production that your talking about would take years, and anyone breeding them will want a price comparable to what they paid. I sincerely doubt that there are enough hobbyist's production to impact Tesoros on the Historonica or Lehmani. Now, the terriblis might be a completely different story.
I am referring to this round of importation. It includes many fecund varieties: terribilis, aurotaenia, and truncates. It is my understanding that these will be almost, if not full grown animals. (Don't quote me on that.) So it is conceivable that these frogs will breed right out of the box, in large numbers. Not good for Tesoros. (Things that are not good for Tesoros are not good for us getting the historonica and lehmanni. See where I'm going here? Don't set up your histo tank yet. This is not a done deal.) I believe that auratus will be coming early next year. Provided these are successful, we may get the obligates. I agree that hobbyist breeding of the obligates will not have an effect on Tesoros's ability to sell frogs.
I humbly concede that the spelling of "Columbia" should be Colombia. hock: Feel free to change the title of the thread. Thanks.
Yeah, i think I misunderstood what your point was. As I said as well the non-obligate frogs that tesoros is working with likely will breed fairly easy. Especially considering they are, as you mentioned, sending almost adult frogs. I have seen some other hobbyist mention that they will be donating a portion of their sales from offspring produced from these frogs back to Tesoro's. I think this is what we should encourage as a hobby as I think that many of the hobbyists really like the idea of real frog farms.
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BcsTx Wrote:Quite a few of the Paru parished, very lengthy thread on DB titled "Dead Sylvaticus" from what I have read from others is they were extremely male heavy, besides enclosures and husbandry issues I would venture the deaths could be due to male on male aggression.
Don't hold that thread in too high of respect. I've heard from several reliable sources that the number of dead sylvatica was a bit...exaggerated...
Adam Hess
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thedude Wrote:BcsTx Wrote:Quite a few of the Paru parished, very lengthy thread on DB titled "Dead Sylvaticus" from what I have read from others is they were extremely male heavy, besides enclosures and husbandry issues I would venture the deaths could be due to male on male aggression.
Don't hold that thread in too high of respect. I've heard from several reliable sources that the number of dead sylvatica was a bit...exaggerated... So, who exactly is exaggerating in that thread Adam?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
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thedude Wrote:BcsTx Wrote:Quite a few of the Paru parished, very lengthy thread on DB titled "Dead Sylvaticus" from what I have read from others is they were extremely male heavy, besides enclosures and husbandry issues I would venture the deaths could be due to male on male aggression.
Don't hold that thread in too high of respect. I've heard from several reliable sources that the number of dead sylvatica was a bit...exaggerated...
To Beth's point, I have read a handful of accounts of people losing some of their Paru and I have talked privately with several others that lost Paru as well. I've heard speculation as to how many died but I have heard enough to conclude that more than just a few died. Its not hard to imagine why people wouldn't want to discuss these deaths publically. I think the animals provided were healthy, but I think the lack of knowledge regarding large obligates husbandry, as I mentioned above, was the primary culprit. Larger obligates have a specific set of needs and males are often very territorial. Unfortunately, I think some people underestimated just how territorial they can be and how quickly that can translate into death. Just another example of why larger obligates are better left to more advanced hobbyists.
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